Balancer...

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Tater
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Re: Balancer...

Post by Tater »

Not sure if I've experienced not getting damage points; you obviously don't get points if the vehicle doesn't have an enemy occupying the driver seat... but does that include the secondary seats? Maybe that's where the problem is.
Next time you're in a powerful flier taking out a single-player-occupied mino, pay attention if you receive damage points when they're in the turrets.

Also... whatever happened to trying to balance using efficiency? There was talk about it, but I never heard if it worked or not.

Also also... what happened to the amount of players? I was gonna hop on around 8:30 - 9 EST, nobody but Leon was on. Server used to fill by that time and even had the MegaArena Crew playing early around 7:30 or so. Is there a reason why nobody is playing?
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captainsnarf
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Re: Balancer...

Post by captainsnarf »

Tater wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:34 am Also also... what happened to the amount of players? I was gonna hop on around 8:30 - 9 EST, nobody but Leon was on. Server used to fill by that time and even had the MegaArena Crew playing early around 7:30 or so. Is there a reason why nobody is playing?
I noticed this too, about two weeks ago. Football season I think.
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pooty
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

Yes it seems Saturday night football might be a bigger draw. I'll see if I can get a meeting with the NCAA to move those pesky primetime games...lol

On the scoring side, so there's base ONS scoring set by the engine, this awards points for player kill, node create,link, destroy (primary linker only) and I believe the vehicle kill. There's the ONSPlus mutator which "enhances" this, that splits Node create/destroy points among players, adds points for linking vehicles, adds damage points (you get 1pt per 400 is how its currently set up), points for using pally (and only the pally) shield to absorb damage. It seems to be flaky on how it works, I've seen it where it stops giving damage points, on both Enyo and I, and at times for some reason vehicle kills only = 1, when the larger vehicles should be more. So, at times it whacks the scoring system, its just not consistent.
Part of this is that this Mutator code should be inspected and rewritten to account for other vehicles (so for example, you get points for shield absorb damage on Aegis, Crusader, Dark Paladin, Turtle. Even I think the linking only really works right on stock vehicles (eg. Goliath but not Mino (sometimes from what I observed). But its a combination of what the engine does and we don't AFAIK have complete control over that. And unfortunately we don't have the source code to ONSPlus. The damn author exploited a bug that won't let us decompile it and I can't find the source on the internet. I sent an email to the author on the website http://homepage.eircom.net/~JBarrett847/ONSPlus.html but no response.

So, that can skew scores. Part of it is that, but its (mostly) the same for everyone. Regardless of what the scoring system is, there's always going to be somewhat of a point imbalance...if you take a OP vehicle and whore it..you'll get tons of points and not help your team. The issue I think is that at time some players end up with too high a score (as shown in the examples) that it skews the teams. Fixing the scoring would help so that activities that are quite helpful, building/destroying nodes, linking vehicles are just as important as blowing up the Levi. Capping the max would ensure that there aren't any huge outliers (like 700 PPH, when most top tier players end up in the 400-500 range).
This wouldn't let one skewed player equal two really good players (shown below). BTW there are time and point minimums to count the PPH, but unlike the stats DB you can rack up a high PPH spamming against bots.

@Tater, I'd have to figure out how to get the stats information, out of a completely seperate database, back over to the server in a format that server mutators can read. There's more processing done on the statsDB that IMO the server could do real time.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

homepage.eircom.net/~JBarrett847/ONSPlus-v1.0.zip
Found the source code!
Sadly, if we want all the enhanced scoring it looks like it needs extensive edits as it replaces the "stock vehicles", kind of like what's Snarf's mutators do, at start time, or what randomizers do each round. So seems like some potential for side effects.
// Replace vehicles
if (ONSVehicleFactory(A) != None)
{
VF = ONSVehicleFactory(A);

if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSAttackCraft')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusAttackCraft';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSHoverBike')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusHoverBike';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSRV')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusRV';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSPRV')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusPRV';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSHoverTank')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusHoverTank';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSMobileAssaultStation')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusMobileAssaultStation';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSDualAttackCraft')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusDualAttackCraft';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSArtillery')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusArtillery';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSShockTank')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusShockTank';
}
So custom vehicles won't get the scoring? I have to confirm this. Certainly preferred exits won't work on non-stock vehicles.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by SK10H »

Enyo wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:31 am
Do you even realize that the damage points mutator is set right now to reward only 1 point per kill, regardless of vehicle type? But the problem is it does not work consistently at all. That was done to give node building a higher value so the balancer has at least some shot at working better. But some players are being rewarded vehicle damage points when they shouldn't be, and others are only getting 1 point. The damage points mutator is causing severe skewing of players' PPH right now. That's a problem that needs to be addressed.
NO, because I am not a score whore and don't stare at the score board all the time after making a kill, will let those to whine for the audits. Just because some players aren't always rushing mindlessly to enemy node doesn't mean they are not positioning at strategic position to do assist. Not everyone is capable to always be an attacker, or they may be wasting good vehicle respawn time or get hijack. There are almost no regular I can see that are doing a joy-ride anytime so that's not an issue in general.

You can have your opinion that PPH is accurate when score is mainly based on node, I will choose additional metric or even a simple no balancer match to KISS. If the match is short, BFD going to new map.

Even with equal teams, all it takes is a tiny little fuckup on one side and the game is reversed, so I will not be losing any sleep trying to piss off many playing styles just to get the imaginary lineup all the time and make every match an hour me up.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

If the match is short, BFD going to new map.
That's the point of suggesting the new game scoring (not player). Max 3 rounds, 2 pts to win, very short Regulation. If the teams are fubar'd then its over quickly.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by captainsnarf »

pooty wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pm homepage.eircom.net/~JBarrett847/ONSPlus-v1.0.zip
Found the source code!
Sadly, if we want all the enhanced scoring it looks like it needs extensive edits as it replaces the "stock vehicles", kind of like what's Snarf's mutators do, at start time, or what randomizers do each round. So seems like some potential for side effects.
// Replace vehicles
if (ONSVehicleFactory(A) != None)
{
VF = ONSVehicleFactory(A);

if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSAttackCraft')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusAttackCraft';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSHoverBike')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusHoverBike';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSRV')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusRV';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSPRV')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusPRV';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSHoverTank')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusHoverTank';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSMobileAssaultStation')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusMobileAssaultStation';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSDualAttackCraft')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusDualAttackCraft';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSArtillery')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusArtillery';
else if (VF.VehicleClass == Class'ONSShockTank')
VF.VehicleClass = Class'ONSPlusShockTank';
}
So custom vehicles won't get the scoring? I have to confirm this. Certainly preferred exits won't work on non-stock vehicles.
That is really ... sucky lol. CSVehiclePack also replaces ONSMobileAssaultStation. I wonder who wins. Probably the last one selected on the server.

If it only scores extra for those vehicles and not the others probably best to remove it? There are so many customs on the server and so few stock vehicles it's just going to throw the scoring off.


Ok, so I downloaded the package and looked through the code. It does some weird stuff.

If you enter a vehicle ducking, you will exit ducking? Here is the feature list:
case "bDropChecks": return "Enable/Disable exit height checks when leaving a vehicle";
case "bSelectableExits": return "Enable/Disable players being able to choose their vehicle exits";
case "bNodeHealScoreFix": return "Enable/Disable shared scoring between linked players when healing nodes";

case "bVehicleHealScore": return "Enable/Disable bonus points for healing a vehicle";
case "HealValueScore": return "One point is awarded every time a player heals this much health on a vehicle";

case "bVehicleDamageScore": return "Enable/Disable bonus points for damaging a vehicle";
case "DamageValueScore": return "One point is awarded every time a player damages a vehicle this much";


case "bNodeIsolateBonus": return "Enable/Disable bonus points for isolating nodes";
case "IsolateBonusPctPerNode": return "The percentage of bonus points awarded to a player for every isolated node";

case "bAllowEnhancedRadar": return "Enable/Disable improved menu radar which shows occupied vehicle spawns";

case "bDisablePreferredTeam": return "Enable/Disable assigned players to their preferred team";
case "bDisableVersionCheck": return "Enable/Disable incompatability message that gets shown to pre-3369 clients"
All of the features about vehicles are only for the original vehicles that get replaced.

These are the non-vehicle changes:
bNodeHealScoreFix (link guns only, not link tank or link badger),
bNodeIsolateBonus
IsolateBonusPctPerNode
bDisablePreferredTeam (does this matter with balancer?)
bDisableVersionCheck (does this matter?)

If this is all true, you'll get more points killing a manta than the mino.
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pooty
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

If it only scores extra for those vehicles and not the others probably best to remove it? There are so many customs on the server and so few stock vehicles it's just going to throw the scoring off.
I think the impact is minimal, you only get damage points with stock vehicles..but we saw some variation when I adjusted it.

I think the valuable parts is the dots on the spawn map showing what vehicles where, and the link gun linking node building for shared points is worth it, and isolate bonus.

I wonder if we can port the scoring changes to the vehicle pack (since its replacing several anyway)? And we could add the scoring code to the Omni vehicles? But then I wonder if it matters? I think I'd rather spend time on newer vehicles/maps then dive into that code mess -- (too much like work)
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Re: Balancer...

Post by captainsnarf »

pooty wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:17 pm I think the impact is minimal, you only get damage points with stock vehicles..but we saw some variation when I adjusted it.

I think the valuable parts is the dots on the spawn map showing what vehicles where, and the link gun linking node building for shared points is worth it, and isolate bonus.

I wonder if we can port the scoring changes to the vehicle pack (since its replacing several anyway)? And we could add the scoring code to the Omni vehicles? But then I wonder if it matters? I think I'd rather spend time on newer vehicles/maps then dive into that code mess -- (too much like work)
I thought about it. I looked at ONSPlus code.
Image
Nope. Screw that. lol.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

So some discussion of just removing ONSPlus entirely.

The vehicle damage points and vehicle heal points don't work right anyway -- they only work for stock vehicles based on the code in 1.0 (maybe 101_beta31 has custom vehicle support--but we have no way of knowing). Might be something we can test out, but I need to do it on the server with at least 2 other people live.

Other than that the only other "feature" that some use is the enhanced radar map. (you can hover of the little dots shows what vehicles are are what spawn points -- I really never use this, but I think there a few that do, but I suspect most don't even know about it).
Shared Node building / Destroy points -- not sure how that works. It might only work intermittently.
Basically from what I can tell, ONSPlus replaces a bunch of stock vehicles/weapons with its own copies that handle the different player scoring. So for custom vehicles (like pretty much anything but Goliath, Bender, Manta, Raptor, Scorpion) I don't think it works. It also replaces weapons (link gun, Avril) for scoring, which is why it didn't work on MasterShower last night--no shared points because that map uses a non-standard link gun.

I want to take closer look at the code, but I am inclined to either
1. Turn it off entirely (less replacing, less chance of some strange bug/effect/interaction with other packages)
2. Turn off most of the features (Damage points, etc.)
3. Rewrite a new mutator keeping the bits we like and gutting the rest.

I think I'll start with option 2 and see maybe just the shared node/build destory will help.. all this so the point scoring is consistent. Right now you can get lots of damage/heal points using/healing a goliath, but not for linking other vehicles....
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