Fix the scoring?

General Comments, Questions about all things OmnipotentS that don't go in other topics/forums

Should the Omni Dev staff put in time to fix scoring? Its likely a several week (part time) effort.

Poll runs till Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:28 am

No - rather have new maps/vehicles, I play for fun not too see me name at the top
0
No votes
Maybe - if its not a huge amount of (volunteer) work it would really help the balancer issues, I'd wait longer for new stuff to fix it.
5
83%
Yes - Scoring drives everything from balancer, to my own self esteem at seeing my name at the top as reward for my mino whoring.
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

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Enyo
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by Enyo »

DrScrotey wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:41 pm Do we want stalemate matches though?
Not really, but I don't think that would happen if the PPH based balancer works a little better because the scoring is more accurate. Like pooty pointed out, sometimes several high PPH players will be on the same team and still lose. Could be because the bottom half was really weak, OR it could have been because several of those "top tier" players just don't work very well together.

I've played tons of matches where it looks like my team should dominate based on the roster, but we either lose or barely win, and it's usually because of lack of teamwork and comms. I'm personally in the boat of balance in onslaught is not truly achievable, it's too complex. But, we embarked on this road of using a balancer long ago, so might as well make it work as best as possible.
DrScrotey wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:41 pm edit: Nodes constructed per hour may be an influential stat.
I've said that before too, but again, requires using the Stats DB as a data source, requiring too much work to be worth it.
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Tater
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by Tater »

Exactly what Enyo said; Just watched a game (yesterday or so) where the top players on Enyo's team had a lower score compared to the other team's top players, yet Enyo's came out the winner. Teamwork makes the dream work baby. Comms mean everything in a team game. Calling out simple (useful) stuff goes a long way.
I should use my mic more often... I occasionally find myself relying on leader-like players sometimes (Mclovin, Army, Enyo, etc) to point my monkey-brain in the right direction.
It's great when you have someone very knowledgeable using their mic and directing the team. Even better when you have players that listen.
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McLovin
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by McLovin »

Tater wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:07 pm ...
Teamwork makes the dream work baby. Comms mean everything in a team game. Calling out simple (useful) stuff goes a long way.
I should use my mic more often... I occasionally find myself relying on leader-like players sometimes ... to point my monkey-brain in the right direction.
It's great when you have someone very knowledgeable using their mic and directing the team. Even better when you have players that listen.
...
All this. Without comms, your team is the shit. I'd listen to SolidStool for an hour, because it's useful info. No comms and your team is dead.

Get a Fookin mic you asshats and speak up.

Proposal: Give points for using in-game comms, voice and msgs.
DrScrotey
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by DrScrotey »

All this talking about stats made me want to do some analysis on the UTstatsDB. I chose the top 135 players ranked by play time, which turned out to be everyone above ~12 hours on Omni 2.0.

% Wins average: 45%, Standard Error: 11%
Effectiveness average: 43%, Standard Error: 9%

% Wins looked gaussian, but Effectiveness was truncated at 30% and 70%.

Play time was Pareto distributed.

I also made a metric that tries to quantify how much a player deathmatches/mino whores at the expense of winning. i.e. Eff./% Wins

Not sure of a convenient way to share the (rough) spreadsheet or if anyone would be interested to see it.

My rank as of tonight is 74th percentile in effectiveness, 93th percentile in % wins. 29th percentile in Eff./% Wins
Last edited by DrScrotey on Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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captainsnarf
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by captainsnarf »

Yes, we need a list like that and I don't want to do the math lol. We have all the code for the balancer ready to modify. Currently each player has an internal score used for balancing. I wanted to add a scaling factor for known players. For the average player this is 1.0 but for better players it would be > 1.0. We could use your spreadsheet to come up with the scaling factor.

I'm not convinced this will help but it's something we could try. The other night we played AJ. The match started with 8 players and ended with 30. I'm not sure what the balancer is supposed to do with that, but I think that happens a lot.

When teams are even, the next player to join goes to red. I think that needs fixed. It should go through the balancing. Maybe they should be on blue instead. Since you always go to red when teams are balanced, people use this to pick their (winning) team when joining, subverting the balancer.
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pooty
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by pooty »

Not sure of a convenient way to share the (rough) spreadsheet or if anyone would be interested to see it.
Google Sheets maybe? Not that I want everyone seeing my low scores.
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McLovin
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by McLovin »

captainsnarf wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:00 am ...
When teams are even, the next player to join goes to red. I think that needs fixed. It should go through the balancing. Maybe they should be on blue instead. Since you always go to red when teams are balanced, people use this to pick their (winning) team when joining, subverting the balancer.
If you implement an even-joining algorithm, can you turn off the "teams" balancer?

Test case:
1. Player A wants to join.
2. An empty slot is available on the winning team.
3. The even-joining algorithm places the new player A on the losing team. This creates a numerical imbalance.
4. Somebody types "teams" and player A gets switched to the winning team.

I think we are all in agreement that getting switched mid-game is a terrible thing. Even between rounds, it's discouraging, but I'd rather put up with that than getting mid-game switched.
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Enyo
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by Enyo »

McLovin wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:38 am If you implement an even-joining algorithm, can you turn off the "teams" balancer?

Test case:
1. Player A wants to join.
2. An empty slot is available on the winning team.
3. The even-joining algorithm places the new player A on the losing team. This creates a numerical imbalance.
4. Somebody types "teams" and player A gets switched to the winning team.

I think we are all in agreement that getting switched mid-game is a terrible thing. Even between rounds, it's discouraging, but I'd rather put up with that than getting mid-game switched.
In snarf's scenario, the balancer won't add a player to the team with an extra player, even if it's the losing team, nor should it. The new player would have to go on the winning team with the slot available to make the numbers even. Then, if someone else new joins with the team numbers even, it will decide which team gets the new join based on overall balancer scoring, not who is currently winning the match. You can't just keep adding players to the losing team regardless of the number of players on each team, number of players has to stay even as possible.
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DrScrotey
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by DrScrotey »

captainsnarf wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:00 am Yes, we need a list like that and I don't want to do the math lol. We have all the code for the balancer ready to modify. Currently each player has an internal score used for balancing. I wanted to add a scaling factor for known players. For the average player this is 1.0 but for better players it would be > 1.0. We could use your spreadsheet to come up with the scaling factor.
Here is the link to the google sheets https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Anyone can edit, so feel free, I have a backup if it gets mangled.
As for the scaling factor I think the PPH / avg PPH would be best as PPH shows the highest correlation with % wins (r^2 = 0.5).
The data also highlights outliers like Helper-Bot (>1000 PPH). Also I don't understand General_Purpose's % wins (95%) unless it's a bug...
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pooty
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by pooty »

Also I don't understand General_Purpose's % wins (95%) unless it's a bug...
Him and Helper-Bot like to play against the bots...
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