OP vehicles..

Discuss and provide feedback on Maps.
User avatar
YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:03 pm
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: Misc Map Changes Thread..for little glitches and annoyances...

Post by YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH »

Yeah that's a good idea, in the video the range awkwardly short. Plus Enyo's reactions line up with it perfectly.

Does anyone know about the "rat rod" idea? Can you make the Omega so it's always smoking and sparking no matter its health? That'll make it harder to hide on rooftops and just beyond the fog. Give it the rust texture and some janky sounds as an added bonus and it's all set.
User avatar
pooty
Posts: 4358
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:22 am
Location: Michigan
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by pooty »

Moved to this thread, more appropriate.

I've updated the Omega 2.2 to have a range of 12500. That's far enough to hit 1/2 from the 7/10 arch on Junkyard. Its well inside avril range (15000). I realize the blast radius of 2500 + 12500 = 15000. Now before you math types (eg. Dr. Scrotey) correct me, yes that's radius and should have been halved. But I figured the whole point was to give the folks on the ground a change to defend against it. This means Shock/Avril and Miniguns (and vehicle miniguns) will all be able to hit an Omega that's blasting them, even at the far end of the blast radius (12500 vs 13750). And since this would allow you to pop up from 7/10 and just barely hit 1/2 that's probably good spot on range.

Sorry you can't sit way back and be immune at 18000, or even 15500 and blast away anymore.

I didn't mess with appearance, that's a bit more time intensive.
User avatar
pooty
Posts: 4358
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:22 am
Location: Michigan
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by pooty »

We've slowed the saucers and adjusted the Mechs.

I know Enyo wanted the Omega range increased,but not going to happen without a major damage reduction. I'll stand firm on flyers that have weapons that shoot farther than other weapons:
Avril Range, Most Minigun Turrets 15000 UU
Shock Rifle 17000 UU
Most Lasers (standardized) 20000 UU

So I could be convinced to increase the Omega range from 12500 to maybe 13750. But that flyer is devastating.

As part of the in game discussion there was talk that the "top tier" players needed the "OP" vehicles to take back the map or compensate for weak team.. but I think this a bit of the trap we've fallen into... we need to beat that with team work, not making sure that Enyo/Xexx/Leon etc gets into a powerful flyer while the rest of us don't matter (which I think is amightytribbles point), I think the more powerful the vehicle it amplifies the skill gap which makes for a frustrating experience for other players.

What else is OP and needs nerfed?
Xexx
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:04 am

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by Xexx »

pooty wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:28 pm Moved to this thread, more appropriate.

I've updated the Omega 2.2 to have a range of 12500. That's far enough to hit 1/2 from the 7/10 arch on Junkyard. Its well inside avril range (15000). I realize the blast radius of 2500 + 12500 = 15000. Now before you math types (eg. Dr. Scrotey) correct me, yes that's radius and should have been halved. But I figured the whole point was to give the folks on the ground a change to defend against it. This means Shock/Avril and Miniguns (and vehicle miniguns) will all be able to hit an Omega that's blasting them, even at the far end of the blast radius (12500 vs 13750). And since this would allow you to pop up from 7/10 and just barely hit 1/2 that's probably good spot on range.

Sorry you can't sit way back and be immune at 18000, or even 15500 and blast away anymore.

I didn't mess with appearance, that's a bit more time intensive.
RE: Omega range anxiety

So, to rephrase my question: In that post, the Omega displayed different ranges within the same game. Does the range change depending on movement?
User avatar
pooty
Posts: 4358
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:22 am
Location: Michigan
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by pooty »

So, to rephrase my question: In that post, the Omega displayed different ranges within the same game. Does the range change depending on movement?[/quote]

No max Range is fixed. It should not change with movement.

Right now its 12,500 UU (unreal units). Thats to the center of of the Ion cannon burst which is 2500 UU in diameter. So the farthest thing it can hit is 12,500+(2500/2) = 13750, edge of ion blast..

I was proposing to increase that to 13750+(2500/2) = 15000 (edge of the blast is still within avril range).
However that means I can sit back blast and then pull back out of avril range easily, and even out of Shock Rifle range, which is pretty devastating for a flyer that one shots full nodes, and kill most vehicles in one shot.
User avatar
Enyo
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:27 pm
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by Enyo »

pooty wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:59 pm No max Range is fixed. It should not change with movement.

Right now its 12,500 UU (unreal units). Thats to the center of of the Ion cannon burst which is 2500 UU in diameter. So the farthest thing it can hit is 12,500+(2500/2) = 13750, edge of ion blast..

I was proposing to increase that to 13750+(2500/2) = 15000 (edge of the blast is still within avril range).
However that means I can sit back blast and then pull back out of avril range easily, and even out of Shock Rifle range, which is pretty devastating for a flyer that one shots full nodes, and kill most vehicles in one shot.
Maybe it's just some of the maps it's on that make it useless now... no point having it on MassD anymore since lasers have a 20,000 range and the map is wide open. Omega is always toast before it ever gets a shot off, has to get within 6250 of a laser range before it can even just do splash damage, 7500 for a direct hit. It's no contest, lasers win every time. Omega barely appears anywhere else other than randomizers, but at least on those you have hills and building you can swoop out from behind to deal with the "Omega range anxiety."

Speaking of OP vehicles, ridiculous lasers and nerfing things, how about reducing the Troop Carrier's health a tad?
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain
User avatar
Enyo
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:27 pm
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by Enyo »

And please do not further nerf the Falcon EVER again. That's been on the server for 10+ years, sorry if the whiners still haven't learned to use it. Besides, it's practically made of paper, blows up just by looking at it funny.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain
User avatar
pooty
Posts: 4358
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:22 am
Location: Michigan
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by pooty »

has to get within 6250 of a laser range
Why are you halving the range.. its range is 12500. Just have to hide behind a tower... and I am not sure MassD is the map to use as the barometer, Omega on JY is still pretty deadly. I had hesitated to put it on other maps because it was so OP...I think Anon called it flying endless redeemers. But now its vulnerable to Anti-air.
how about reducing the Troop Carrier's health a tad?
It was reduced from 2200 to 1200. Its the ultimate Anti-air machine, especially with two gunners.
And please do not further nerf the Falcon EVER again.
No plans, the current Falcon 3.0 was refined a few times to still be powerful and have a good balance. Its quite agile and if you can sneak and alt-fire that's pretty deadly. It is one of the best most versatile flyers.
User avatar
Enyo
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:27 pm
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by Enyo »

pooty wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:19 pm
has to get within 6250 of a laser range
Why are you halving the range.. its range is 12500. Just have to hide behind a tower... and I am not sure MassD is the map to use as the barometer, Omega on JY is still pretty deadly. I had hesitated to put it on other maps because it was so OP...I think Anon called it flying endless redeemers. But now its vulnerable to Anti-air.
Not halving anything... my point was the Omega is 6250 UU out of range from hitting vehicles with lasers (20000 UU). 20000 (laser range) minus 13750 (max Omega blast range) = 6250. That's just the edge of the blast radius, which won't come close to killing any tank. To get a direct hit with the Omega, you have to be at 12500 range on vehicles that have 20000 range lasers. Yeah, sounds like a fair fight!

This means unless you can sneak up on a Troop Carrier, Mino, Hurricane, Centaur, etc. the Omega never has a chance against any of them. So, now it's weak against any ground vehicle with lasers in addition to already being weak against every flyer. Sure, you can hide behind towers and such, but at some point you have to fly the thing somewhere and you inevitably get picked off by some lasers you can't even see before they start hitting you.

Reducing the damage and blast radius of the ion blast would be better than reducing range so drastically. Otherwise, just remove it because nobody uses it now. At least none of the good pilots do, because it's, well, useless now.

Still seems like whining about of the OP flyers always results in drastic nerfing of flyers, but OP tanks get incremental small nerfs. Cutting the range in half was super drastic, add the measly 2500 back and it's still a flyer I won't ever be using again. If that was the intent, then well done.

I think the range should be at 15000, and reduce the blast radius dramatically (no bigger than the size of a node) as a compromise so you have to be more precise with each hit. Otherwise just remove it altogether, because it'll just sit there unused wasting a flyer spot whenever it spawns.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain
User avatar
pooty
Posts: 4358
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:22 am
Location: Michigan
Server Sponsor: Yes
Server Admin: Yes

Re: OP vehicles..

Post by pooty »

So two points.

1. The range issues come into play when we have different range limits for different weapons. Think Lasers vs. Shock vs. Minigun. Correct if its a Troop Carrier, Hurricane lasers the Omega might have a hard time, but previously Omega range pretty much meant anything else was dead, one shot with no chance of even inflicting any damage.
To get a direct hit with the Omega, you have to be at 12500 range on vehicles that have 20000 range lasers. Yeah, sounds like a fair fight!
Lasers have to be aimed precisely and held on target for about 1.5 seconds to kill Omega. The ION blast only has to relatively close and only needs one shot, aim doesn't need to be maintained. Perhaps the lasers are too powerful, but it rarely seems like other than the sniper crowd (Sanka, Anon, Nautikal etc) most don't bother with them.

And it open spaces sure the flyer gets decimated, watch leon/xexx sometime pop up behind a hill on JY, or on Minus with buildings shoot, hide, repeat. Very difficult to get a kill even with lasers.
Still seems like whining about of the OP flyers always results in drastic nerfing of flyers, but OP tanks get incremental small nerfs
2. Flying in general is a huge advantage over any tank. A flyer can pop out from above, to the side, and retreat behind an object using 3 dimensions whereas a tank is much slower and 2 dimensional. Flyers avoid many obstacles that tanks can't as well as more agile and harder to hit. How many people complain they can't hit you in a Falcon vs. how many complain they can't hit you in a Tank?

Reducing the damage and blast radius of the ion blast would be better than reducing range so drastically.
I think this could make sense. Bring range back to say 14000, reduce the damage by about 1/2 and reduce the radius to about 1000 (from 2500). This way the larger tanks will survive a single shot. Maybe damage low enough to take node down in two shots? I'd also think doing this we could make it more agile at least back to Raptor spec. Flyers should be agile but not do heavy damage like a tank... we don't need a flying mino, maybe the upper limit for flyer damage is around 400-500 / s. Which would also might mean an increase in fire rate.

Bottom line I don't think any flyer should have the ability to one shot a node, or do more than 400-600 pts in a single shot. The ifrit alt-fire might be too much (same as Fire Tanks) but its not instant damage -- and I don't think it needs changing, but I think after the Omega, that's the most damaging flyer single shot.

I'll play with it a bit...
Post Reply