The end is near and it aint pretty.

General Comments, Questions about all things OmnipotentS that don't go in other topics/forums
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Enyo
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Re: The end is near and it aint pretty.

Post by Enyo »

vorpal wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:50 pm A good map should be designed in a way that offers players the choice of whether to proceed in a vehicle or on foot, with either option being a viable choice. That means, a skilled player on foot should not be disadvantaged in a battle against a player in a vehicle.
There are plenty of good maps where walking around on foot is asinine because they’re too big for walking to nodes, Dria is a great example. And I’m not sure the notion that a foot soldier should not be disadvantaged in battle against a vehicle holds water… vehicles of war are inherently more powerful than foot soldiers. That’s why they exist.
vorpal wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:50 pm Look at maps like GunShop and MasterBath on CEONSS. It's no coincidence that these maps happen to be the most popular ones on CEONSS.

On Omni, it's a bit different because players have become accustomed to ever more powerful vehicles. I would be inclined to tone down the damage and/or hit points of some of these vehicles to restore some balance.
Master bath is also one of the most popular maps on OMNI, in fact it’s our default crash map. And I agree, it’s about as balanced of a map as you can get. But, just because it was designed with foot soldiers in mind (i.e. smaller layout with multiple warps), doesn’t mean that’s the only valid way to create a good map.

Minus TMU and Dria are both examples of good maps that don’t make things even handed for foot soldiers. There’s nothing wrong with having vehicle intensive maps, and our community largely prefers randomizer maps that have lots of vehicles.

That said, we are actively looking at toning down the damage dealt by some vehicles. I do think though that having the large variety of vehicles is partly what’s made OMNI as popular as it’s been for so long, and basically the last and only populated UT2004 ONS server in North America.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain
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captainsnarf
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Re: The end is near and it aint pretty.

Post by captainsnarf »

You can have 20 years experience, or you can have 20 years of 1 year experience. Most of our players fall into the latter category. Still playing the same game for 20 years, on the same maps, with the same strategies. There is some comfort in that, but not much improvement in skills.

It's no coincidence the players I see complaining about the vehicles being too powerful are the same players I see playing other game modes like freon and TAM. The skill gap increases and drives players away. We all play this game to win, and nobody wants to play when the game is tilted against them.

We don't run quad jump or multi dodge by default, and most of our maps are too big for it to matter, so the main skill where the gap increases is aim. Some of our players can aim well, most cannot. Whenever a change is made to the server that rewards aim, like the addition of the armadillo/troop carrier or the link tank update, it ends up getting nerfed as the other players complain. Troop carrier too powerful. New link tank lasers too powerful. But they are only really powerful in the hands of players with good aim. It just makes me feel like I get punished for trying to improve.

About the only thing that doesn't seem to get nerfed are flyers. You'll never catch leon or enyo in a bender or rail tank. They always have a flyer and will camp the spawn if they don't have one. If a map doesn't have a falcon, chupa or now lamprey, it will get added, and if it has lasers, they get nerfed. If those changes aren't made, the map doesn't get played. The 'goodies' spawn on minus behind the crates that gives you a keg, super shield, extra long double damage, and redeemer is pretty much designed for flyers. Even the old, 500 health ballista that hasn't changed in 18 years had some grumblings of getting nerfed because it can one-shot flyers. Flyers=good, foot soldiers=bad, splash damage=good, aim=bad. That's what omni has become, but it's also the reason we still have players at all. If that's what we have to do to keep it going then I guess that's where it is. I think pooty does a good job balancing the maps for the majority of our players, but the majority haven't improved much and don't try to.
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Re: The end is near and it aint pretty.

Post by pooty »

About the only thing that doesn't seem to get nerfed are flyers. You'll never catch leon or enyo in a bender or rail tank. They always have a flyer and will camp the spawn if they don't have one. If a map doesn't have a falcon, chupa or now lamprey, it will get added, and if it has lasers, they get nerfed. If those changes aren't made, the map doesn't get played. The 'goodies' spawn on minus behind the crates that gives you a keg, super shield, extra long double damage, and redeemer is pretty much designed for flyers. Even the old, 500 health ballista that hasn't changed in 18 years had some grumblings of getting nerfed because it can one-shot flyers. Flyers=good, foot soldiers=bad, splash damage=good, aim=bad. That's what omni has become, but it's also the reason we still have players at all. If that's what we have to do to keep it going then I guess that's where it is. I think pooty does a good job balancing the maps for the majority of our players, but the majority haven't improved much and don't try to.
Well said.

And flyers get nerfed. Even the beloved Falcon got "standardized" the more powerful version wasn't it. Some of what I'll call the OP flyer group Omega/Starbolt/Aurora all got a bit of work done (and Auroras might get more as they basically can one shot nodes and have like 400 health!). The Chupa recently got a bit of a nerf too, its health / max health was reduced, as was its link multiplier.

I try to add boards/mantas so folks that like to play on foot can get to goodies (deemers, recently updated painters --- with increased range) and take on the big slow tanks....

No the Ballista isn't getting nerfed, although I want to change its skin to the one on Barracks..it looks cooler...

Flyers will always be good, they can avoid terrain obstacles.
I am happy to reduce splash damage...shall I dare reduce it on the Mino?

My current way of thinking is I want to reduce spammy vehicles/weapons. Even Lasers are bit spammy (which speaking of Link Tank Lasers got a bit of nerfing too). I think we should reward aim, which things like Twin beams on various tanks do.. you can just spray and pray, have to aim, lead and shoot. But I also think too many one-shot vehicles is frustrating....

Several maps have quad jump btw. I feel like that's a good mod for players... multi-dodge is too much imo.

But ultimately it comes down to map design/vehicle placement. MasterBath as it currently sits was years of tweaking. Most maps that are on the better side of average need at least 6 tweaks and often 10 or more -- based on play. As map designer, you can only anticipate so much play, bots are mostly useless (even with pathing)-- you need human players especially the clever ones like Enyo, Anon, Leon, Roger etc. (Yes Roger he's great at finding sneaky shit) to help with map development.

And you'll find more nerfing in the days ahead... (Odin just got a nerf too)... this isn't vehicle instagib.

BTW, I removed the lamprey from the latest version of Magnanimous...

If anyone would like to help play test newer maps, please volunteer, extra eyes always helps. Perhaps on new maps, I should add Beta/TESTMAP or something to it.

PS. People do love randomizers, the crazy action is fun, and the ever changing vehicle loadout is also fun.
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Pegasus
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Re: The end is near and it aint pretty.

Post by Pegasus »

vorpal wrote:A good map should be designed in a way that offers players the choice of whether to proceed in a vehicle or on foot, with either option being a viable choice. That means, a skilled player on foot should not be disadvantaged in a battle against a player in a vehicle.

Look at maps like GunShop and MasterBath on CEONSS. There are vehicles, sometimes very powerful ones, but the maps also provide ways for players without vehicles to counter them. E.g. GunShop has a Kraken, which can hit the other side of the map, but it also has a narrow shortcut to the opposite base with a deemer and health/shield powerups. MasterBath has an ion cannon above the central node, but it also has teleporters that allow players on foot to quickly reach the enemy nodes. There is no such thing as perfect balance, but this is good map design that attempts to balance the desires of vehicle/non-vehicle players. It's no coincidence that these maps happen to be the most popular ones on CEONSS.

On Omni, it's a bit different because players have become accustomed to ever more powerful vehicles. I would be inclined to tone down the damage and/or hit points of some of these vehicles to restore some balance.

Camping can be discouraged by adjusting maps to gradually reduce the health of players who remain in a particular vicinity. The space above the ceiling in GunShop is an example of this.
You know, after almost 15 years of collectively improving our understanding of ONS as an admin team, evolving content evaluation, gameplay quality and both client and server performance standards, and adhering to those in a (hopefully) consistent manner across most map edits that comprise CEONSS' roster, it's pretty heartening to see newer members still notice and appreciate this effort as a successful approach to delivering good ONS enough to communicate its example even beyond that community's walls. Certainly sent a warm n' fuzzy sense of affirmation to this retired ole hand's way :).

To try and sum up that fundamental concept for the benefit of anyone interested in comparing admin content management notes, then, it comes down to aiming for a healthy "marriage" of viable playstyles - within what any map's understood design goals can reasonably accommodate, of course - all able to meaningfully contribute to the match's outcome, and engineering (via geometry, pickups/tools/superweaps, and other additional elements) a multitude of situational reasons to need to switch between them on the fly in order to push, flip objectives and eventually prevail. In that context, whether a player's preferred playstyle will leave them at a relative (dis)advantage in any particular situation should mostly depend on their tactical prowess, i.e. their choice of approach & minimizing visibility/perceivability, their overall map knowledge, use of proper weapon/gear, timing of attack, and so on. Done right, this recipe can lead to challenging n' skill-based (but still fair) play and ad hoc cooperation between players and playstyles across an expansive and bidirectionally shifting battlefront that distinguishes this gamemode from the rest - and, IMO, elevates it above all the others.
The design alternative that might see one playstyle prove clearly dominant over the other, merely supported ones (e.g., a bigger map where victory largely depends on better use of overpowered custom flyers picking off small fry) typically leads to less diverse or skillful, and thus less challenging play, causing players who don't favour that particular type of action to disengage and avoid such maps entirely, if possible, in the short-term, and, should that alternative become a server's driving content management philosophy across its roster, likely also making them gradually self-select out of that server/community altogether to go look for greener pastures elsewhere, to the detriment of everyone. It's not an advisable road for any admin team to take, even if a vocal subgroup that favours that particular playstyle might create the appearance that everyone is in support of such a preferential management style.

Lastly, in light of the examples mentioned above, and in case anyone might be interested in looking into other CEONSS-hosted maps where there's close parity between the overall potency of the duelist/pedestrian playstyle to that of the ground or air vehicular one from a gameplay PoV, I might also add to the list a few more entries, like BitchSlap-With-Slap-SP5, DoubleSlap-V3, MasterShower-V3-SP3, Dreamus2SE-T32-C, StarReach-)o(Edition-Edit8, StorageFacility-]I[-C, Tyrant-)o(-Renovation-V1-2019CAE-fix, and, of course, CaptainSors_Island_of_Pwnage_C, a brilliant remake of CaptainGordons_Box_of_Pwnage, meaningfully improved in a number of ways by previous CEONSS boss Cat1981England back in 2016. Doesn't mean there's no other worthwhile maps on the server's roster that also deserve a closer look, mind; it's just that those others might favour using a vehicle a bit more consistently than not due to, say, map size or a reduced number of paths to objectives that are relatively safe from vec attack - or they might outright just be NV/dueling-dominant fare.

Hope that helps.

PS: Hello, Omni. Again.
Eyes in the skies.
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