Fix the scoring?

General Comments, Questions about all things OmnipotentS that don't go in other topics/forums

Should the Omni Dev staff put in time to fix scoring? Its likely a several week (part time) effort.

Poll runs till Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:28 am

No - rather have new maps/vehicles, I play for fun not too see me name at the top
0
No votes
Maybe - if its not a huge amount of (volunteer) work it would really help the balancer issues, I'd wait longer for new stuff to fix it.
5
83%
Yes - Scoring drives everything from balancer, to my own self esteem at seeing my name at the top as reward for my mino whoring.
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

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pooty
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Fix the scoring?

Post by pooty »

So we can take a look at fixing the scoring. Adding the heal/link bonus for all vehicles, damage bonus all vehicles, shield bonus for all shield vehicles...

Its a decent amount of work, probably involves adding/coding dozens of vehicles, and rewriting the ONSPlus mutator... I don't have a good estimate for how much work it actually is, Snarf and I could probably come up with a better estimate if we feel its really worth it. Right now I'd say its a several week (month(s)?) effort part time (since this job doesn't pay well)... and that takes away from vehicles (fixes/new) and map development.

So Omni what's your preference?
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Enyo
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by Enyo »

You know my vote... if the scoring isn't working properly, then neither is the balancer. It should either be high priority or the balancer should be turned off for good.

Regardless of what you do for scoring, healing and destroying nodes should always carry more weight. Right now it still does not. Yes, certain vehicles like the mino and MAS can make getting nodes very difficult. But at the end of the day, it's still about capturing nodes, and the team with the highest number of aggressive node attackers wins every time. In order for the balancer to work in ONS, scoring must be tilted toward node points.

I'm not voting until the choices are changed to a simple Yes or No. As they're worded now, the choices are designed to yet again push a false premise that scores have mostly to do with ego.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
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infinitecat
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by infinitecat »

Enyo wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:52 am But at the end of the day, it's still about capturing nodes, and the team with the highest number of aggressive node attackers wins every time.
It's math.

If you have one more player on your team building nodes than the other team your chances of winning go up considerably.

Perhaps the problem is that nodes build themselves. If they required constant charging until constructed it would prevent more of this "touch and go" stuff.
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captainsnarf
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by captainsnarf »

Something that does need fixed is the link nuke. I'm pretty sure there are no points for using the link nuke (other than kills).

If you are healing vehicles right, it won't affect your kill score but it will improve your game score, since you know, you should be winning. If I spend all match on xmas healing enyo in snipertron and we win, I got a game point right?
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TotalBurn
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by TotalBurn »

infinitecat wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:23 amPerhaps the problem is that nodes build themselves. If they required constant charging until constructed it would prevent more of this "touch and go" stuff.
I tried touch and go last night for the first time on Arctic Randomizer. My team lost and we had a good roster. What I noticed was, my self building nodes got taken down maybe half way thru building and the opposing team brought the node up. I feel like that contributed to our loss and I was pissed off at myself for feeling pressured to hustle to another node without linking. I knew better and I usually will die linking a node.

Im gonna stick with what I know for now and abandon the touch go concept. Sorry for the long rant.

On topic: I wanted to vote the flat yes option but I know how much work is being done behind the scenes daily. Its a lot, so I voted the middle option.
Last edited by TotalBurn on Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pooty
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by pooty »

I'm not voting until the choices are changed to a simple Yes or No. As they're worded now, the choices are designed to yet again push a false premise that scores have mostly to do with ego.
Sorry I was having a bit of fun with sarcasm. Please ignore the personal feeling part, the reality is the scoring affects the balancer, and I mostly already know the answer -- fix the scoring to reward play that's meaningful.... Linking Termy in the Hospitaler on HSH-XMas, and he reciprocates occasionally by linking from Hospitaler to Linkatron should generate some points.

My only reservation is that its a bunch of work to get all these things coordinated and coded..and is it practical to do it.

Snarf and I are in the process of putting all our code and any omni use code on the OmnipotentSONS github. So to elaborate here's the steps:
1. Gather up all the code. This is stuff that Snarf and I worked on, plus all the other custom vehicles we use (LIP, Wormbo's stuff, CasteilVehicles etc.)
2. Determine the scoring changes. It likely can be a gradual process and prioritized.
3. Determine the scope of the changes, and amount of work/testing.

So I'll start with 2. Scoring. (Snarf correct me if I'm off..)
Right now:
Node build = 4pts, shared when using linkguns.
Node Destroy = 5pts, shared when using stock guns/vehicles?? (not sure have to check ONSPlus code)
Node isolate bonus from ONS Plus.
Vehicle/Player kill = 1pt (person in tank = 2pts)
Important Vehicle kill (MAS) = 5pts. (plus 1pt per player)
Some of this we cannot change, as its in the base UT ONS game..well we probably could but I think we should keep that...

My thoughts on priority/how it should work, in order
1. Points for linking using anything (linkgun, vehicles)...so shared node points using link tank, points for linking via linkatron etc.). Meaning Building a node (why its only 4 vs 5 idk..) with link tank should get you points, as should healing teammates.
[I think this is doable with a moderate effort, we just need to gather up all the link stuff in one package which we've kind of already started]

2. Shared node destruction points (need to see if ONSPlus does this today)
[Effort unknown]

3. Shield Points, generate points for shielding with shield vehicles (Aegis, EONS Crusader, Turtle, Hospitaler )
[Moderate effort, modify ONSPlus or CSVehiclePack to replace those with scoring versions... ]

4. Like to have vehicle kill points other than 1 OR 5, make it 1 to 5, so maybe something like FireTank is 2 or that pesky Ifrit is 3pts. That is taking out Minos, bios, firetanks, should be worth more than a Golaith II or badger.
[Effort Unknown, likely requires a custom mutator as it affects base UT scoring]

5. Not sold on Damage points....too much reward for just spamming with Mino/MAS you're gonna get a shitton of points if you're effective in the more powerful vehicles anyway, I don't see the point of rewarding that further. Yes, it sucks when you team up on a Kraken, and you each do 2000 pts damage, but the con of mino blasting another mino equaling 10+ pts out weighs that.. or imagine a Mino blasting a stock Goliath (1pt tank, 1pt player kill and either 2 or 4 damage points) so say 4-6pts for just killing a Goliath/Manta/Hellbender yikes.
unless somehow we can only award damage points on certain vehicles....
[Effort Unknown, likely high]
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pooty
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by pooty »

You know my vote... if the scoring isn't working properly, then neither is the balancer. It should either be high priority or the balancer should be turned off for good.
As crappy as the balancer is some days, its still better than nothing, we've done that test already and have the data to support that.
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infinitecat
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by infinitecat »

TotalBurn wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:53 am I tried touch and go last night for the first time on Arctic Randomizer. My team lost and we had a good roster. What I noticed was, my self building nodes got taken down maybe half way thru building and the opposing team brought the node up.
It's not only important to charge a node, it's vital to charge the node while fighting off attackers until the node builds, even if you die in the process. Such sacrifice is a good measure of a real team player.

Somewhere deep inside many players, I think, is a fear of their avatar dying, a remnant of vintage games which only gave limited lives. A ludicrous fear considering the Unreal game mechanism of immediate reincarnation.
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pooty
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by pooty »

infinitecat wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:17 am It's not only important to charge a node, it's vital to charge the node while fighting off attackers until the node builds, even if you die in the process. Such sacrifice is a good measure of a real team player.
This ^^
imagine you're linking after having jumped out of your manta.
a. Touch and go, some dipwad comes in with a Raptor and kills the building node = Fail 100% = as the enemy now has a change to build unopposed and flip it.
b. Link it, fight with Raptor and raptor decides to kill you vs. node, node up = Win say 50/50 (node up before death)
c. Link it, either you live, and get in a bender and then kill raptor node up = Win say 50/50 (node up and good vehicle before death)
d. Link it, die in the process, but node comes up and is in process of being attacked while your teammate in the Mino takes down enemy node = Win.
Even if say you delay, and stay at the node, if a teammate arrives you're likely going to get the node....
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Tater
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Re: Fix the scoring?

Post by Tater »

My thoughts are if it's a simple fix, go for it. I don't think it should be anybody's task to fork out hours and hours to code it out, even if you want to volunteer those hours.
IMO it's too hard to balance every aspect of onslaught... the balancer has covered most of the major ones already.
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