What vehicles do you despise, or feel need tweaked?

[Rhamp]

I think having different dd pickups that do different things is the best option. That way maps like Nevermore can have the fliers grab the dd and use it, while a dd only for tanks/ground vehicles could be used on Tek. Not sure how difficult this would be to code, or if there is a way to make the dd just not apply if you aren't in the correct vehicle instead of canceling it. Maybe the dd icon could be made to be a tank for ground-only dd so that way it is clear what it is. Removing dd altogether isn't ideal either, since it adds an extra layer of strategy on deciding whether it is worth the time grabbing the dd and dming around the dd to prevent the other team from grabbing it.

Maybe another solution is to make a dd version that makes you take double damage as well as deal double damage during its duration. Then it isn't just a buff where a flier can grab it and run the map, as that flier would be extremely weak and a few shock rifle shots would be enough to kill it.

[pooty]

Is there a way to make double damage not apply to fliers? I like the concept of the double damage, but it buffs fliers to stupid levels of op. It would be nice for tanks to be able to use it.

Yes. Either a custom mutator or specific code in each vehicle. IIRC there were some vehicles it didn't apply to already.

[Rhamp]

I wish there were more levi variants in terms of having more without the giant spam cannon. Some of the levis have cool things that rarely get used since their best use is to deploy and spam a node for the entire game. There really isn't any levi on levi combat since the spam cannon just vaporizes everything.

It would be interesting to have a hospitaler variant that instead of the spam cannon, it would deploy a giant turtle shield with a massive radius. That would allow it to provide a safety shell where allied vehicles can be protected and get healed up by the hospitaler link and shield turrets. I'm always wanting more dimensions to ons than just who can oneshot the other team's power vehicles first.

[YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH]

I wish there were more levi variants in terms of having more without the giant spam cannon. Some of the levis have cool things that rarely get used since their best use is to deploy and spam a node for the entire game. There really isn't any levi on levi combat since the spam cannon just vaporizes everything.

It would be interesting to have a hospitaler variant that instead of the spam cannon, it would deploy a giant turtle shield with a massive radius. That would allow it to provide a safety shell where allied vehicles can be protected and get healed up by the hospitaler link and shield turrets. I'm always wanting more dimensions to ons than just who can oneshot the other team's power vehicles first.

I think that's a cool idea.

[wail-opentournament]

I wish there were more levi variants in terms of having more without the giant spam cannon. Some of the levis have cool things that rarely get used since their best use is to deploy and spam a node for the entire game. There really isn't any levi on levi combat since the spam cannon just vaporizes everything.

It would be interesting to have a hospitaler variant that instead of the spam cannon, it would deploy a giant turtle shield with a massive radius. That would allow it to provide a safety shell where allied vehicles can be protected and get healed up by the hospitaler link and shield turrets. I'm always wanting more dimensions to ons than just who can oneshot the other team's power vehicles first.

Yeah, although I'd argue that this is a bit of a bad example (depending on specifics of behavior). Making all of the vehicles more powerful offensively is an arms race that degenerates into silliness, sure. However, instagib-like gameplay is still a reasonably interactive form of gameplay. Shields / invulnerability / Healing if pushed in the same direction + intensity as offensively overpowered vehicles becomes almost non-interactive.

This comes down a lot to what knobs-and-levers exist for changing up gameplay. Standard UT gameplay has a lot of knobs-and-levers because there's so much depth to movement, so many weapons a player can potentially use, plus a range of powerups / adren-combos. All of these variables give a lot of room for gameplay & player skills to express themselves.

ONS Vehicles actually don't have that many knobs-and-levers in themselves. (Particularly if facing off against vehicles so powerful that footsoldier-play is mostly invalidated.)

Most vehicles don't have the same movement depth as a character, and the weapons are generally a lot simpler and more one dimensional. There's also no powerups that aren't just "more damage" (boring) and no way to pick up a different weapon aside from just changing vehicles.

I think there's some potential to make a more interesting damage model (not just +/- but distinguishing damage types and armor types), add vehicle pickups / powerups. However, I'm not sure how the reception would be and you'd have to have some finesse to do this well on an established game/server setting.

[pooty]

ONS Vehicles actually don't have that many knobs-and-levers in themselves. (Particularly if facing off against vehicles so powerful that footsoldier-play is mostly invalidated.)

Maybe stock ONS vehicles, but with the variety of vehicles we have here there are several that sport multiple weapons, beyond the usual fire/alt-fire. GPolice Venom, Perses, Havoc to name a few have up to 5 different weapons for driver. That's not counting the plethora of different weapons for gunners on various tanks.

The link vehicles are also an exception.. link tanks, badgers, scorpion, Bastion Shield Tank, Hospitaler Levi, all get extra benefit from being linked as well as being able to link themselves. For example, on the Bastion Shield Tank, linking heals it, but also allows the shield to recharge slowly while UP. On a few maps called "Linker Madness" have many of these and key to victory is linking, since link tanks do more damage based on number of linkers.

WRT to footsolidiers.. we've modded pretty much all the vehicles using VehicleDamageMultiplier so that they do less damage to infantry than to other vehicles. Plus some of the vehicles take extra damage from hand held weapons, eg. Mino takes 3x from Bio goo. This gives the footsoldier a chance.. and say a foot solider on hoverboard with double damage bio rifle makes quick work of a Minotaur... Its the combinations/options.. so its more than just point and shoot.

But you are correct in that it took a bit of play to get it to balance out.

For the super hospitaler with the giant shield I think that could work if:
Deploying the shield is deployed levi cannon style, ie. you can't drive with it on.
It isn't complete coverage, maybe 270*, perhaps it takes extra damage if hit with it up etc.
Weapons like Batteries, drain shields is another counter option.

I do like the idea, as the vehicle becomes a strategic assest. We had tried to build the SpawnPoint Hospitaler where you could move it and let players respawn at it. Snarf got it all working locally, but we couldn't get it working right on a server.

[Enyo]

ONS Vehicles actually don't have that many knobs-and-levers in themselves. (Particularly if facing off against vehicles so powerful that footsoldier-play is mostly invalidated.)

Most vehicles don't have the same movement depth as a character, and the weapons are generally a lot simpler and more one dimensional. There's also no powerups that aren't just "more damage" (boring) and no way to pick up a different weapon aside from just changing vehicles.

I think there's some potential to make a more interesting damage model (not just +/- but distinguishing damage types and armor types), add vehicle pickups / powerups. However, I'm not sure how the reception would be and you'd have to have some finesse to do this well on an established game/server setting.

We have some vehicles, particularly flyers, that have greater movement and weapon depth. Some of the helicopters have 3 or more weapon variants, one has I think 5 different weapons, but most of which nobody ever uses. Some aren't very good or useful, but have good potential with some tweaks. The Reaper is interesting and more strategic because it has a stealth/invisibility mode.

[California]

I'm just getting my popcorn and Nestea ready for when then "Which Players Do You Despise" thread gets started. A lot of bad words will get said and someone might get called a turd bird.

[wail-opentournament]

ONS Vehicles actually don't have that many knobs-and-levers in themselves. (Particularly if facing off against vehicles so powerful that footsoldier-play is mostly invalidated.)

Maybe stock ONS vehicles, but with the variety of vehicles we have here there are several that sport multiple weapons, beyond the usual fire/alt-fire. GPolice Venom, Perses, Havoc to name a few have up to 5 different weapons for driver. That's not counting the plethora of different weapons for gunners on various tanks.

We have some vehicles, particularly flyers, that have greater movement and weapon depth. Some of the helicopters have 3 or more weapon variants, one has I think 5 different weapons, but most of which nobody ever uses. Some aren't very good or useful, but have good potential with some tweaks. The Reaper is interesting and more strategic because it has a stealth/invisibility mode.

Yeah, I'm speaking more on the general design level toward what the overall design / systems / expectations that players have with UT2004. A lot of what has been done with modded vehicles is to deepen the vehicular gameplay. There's obviously a lot of design space that was unexplored with the stock vehicle set, and there's a huge variety of experimentation in changing Damage / ROF / Quantity of Fire / AOE values just on basic weapon archetypes.

A tank that fires an arcing cannonball vs. linear shell can feel quite distinctive on that single difference. I'd argue it is distinctive for players but doesn't add any new dimensions to gameplay. -- Not sure if that's clear, as I'm speaking toward changes that are bigger than just a single vehicle, but rather how vehicle play itself works.

I do agree there are some modded vehicles that do break the mold. Even if we ignore issues of poor messaging/readability/UX, there's still a problem in that players have ~20y of expectations you run against if you try to change some aspect of gameplay dramatically.

[pooty]

Even if we ignore issues of poor messaging/readability/UX, there's still a problem in that players have ~20y of expectations you run against if you try to change some aspect of gameplay dramatically.

True. We still have plenty of players that don't understand what some of the modded vehicles really do.

I'm just getting my popcorn and Nestea ready for when then "Which Players Do You Despise" thread gets started. A lot of bad words will get said and someone might get called a turd bird.

Completely different topic. And besides..everyone likes each other here.