A few maps to be pulled?

[pooty]

I really dislike the vehicle spamfest maps.

MassD - any current variant.
HomeSweetHome - any current variant.

I want to pull them from usual rotation and maybe they can get played on one night a week.

Any with the endless stream of vehicles just gets really boring and usually one team of stains will just continually suicide them in Vehicle DM until the other side wins.. frustrating.

I don't want to do it though, unless most of the community agrees.

[YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH]

I like MassDestruction but not HomeSweetHome so I guess my votes cancel themselves out.

[Rhamp]

We might end up with a Tuesday situation again. The solution is to increase the map cooldown more so we get to play a greater variety of maps without causing all the stains to bail. These maps are the only alternatives to the endless slogfests of junk/dria/minus (other than Tek and a few others like volcano, tyrant and nevermore) that get reliably voted on. If we start getting rid of maps, its just going to be more junk/dria/minus spamfests again, and if you get rid of junk/dria/minus, you'll end up with Tuesdays. Once the map cooldown is increased to the point where we average 1-2 spammy maps a night, including junk/dria/minus that would be ideal. The stains would still get on to play, I don't have to sit through an hour of junk/dria/minus, and you don't have to sit through an hour of spamfests to play something that we find actually fun.

The spamfest situation is why I dislike the original MassD so much. The meta way to play it is to have some guy sitting in the levi spamming the middle, a guy in the mino/mega spamming another node from the fog, camping with the dragon/abiter in the fog to wipe fliers off the map, OMFG/nuke spamming on a board etc. We already have seen that the stains would vote for the most spammy maps they are given, which is why I think that is why my version isn't as popular since it plays more like a normal map instead of a camping spamfest. Most of the spammy vehicles were removed along with making the OMFG a timed pickup, and it uses a link setup that doesn't force someone to spam a node the entire game or instantly lose to the link nuke/OMFG tag team.

I think the way to go about the vehicle spamfests is to keep increasing the respawn time of the vehicles until its no longer a zergfest and ensuring that one vehicle doesn't run the map. The problem with HSH is the OMFG/nuke spam, which I reduced in V14. The server still is running V13. The vehicles take long enough to respawn that if you vehicle dm in the vent on your way across the map, you'll be able to take the node before they get their fliers back. The important thing is that you have to push with your team, as a lone flier will get deleted trying to cross the map. This type of teamwork isn't possible on the less vehicle heavy maps, where it is mostly one or two players whoring the few fliers that run the map and solo carrying. Also there are plenty of ways to break a stalemate on HSH, it just requires your team to actually communicate and stop throwing vehicles aimlessly at the nodes. If there is a UFO, then that is a game changer based on if you can kill theirs and keep yours alive, there are the nukes/OMFG pickups taken through the teleporters, and the dropship that can bring mechs, the mino, or some other heavy vehicle like the beefed up troop carrier up into the vent. I remember one game where one guy kept shuttling a shitton of vehicles from the core up into the vent and did a giant tank push through the vent.

[captainsnarf]

I've said this before - the holiday maps should only be on around the holidays. HSH is a holiday map. It was a big spamfest for fun, mostly to test the mechs. It's not supposed to be a staple of the server that gets played every night.

I'm just happy people are still playing this game. If all they want to do is sit in a levi and spam the middle node on HSH we should probably give it to them. Some of our players always quit when more balanced maps like masterbath are voted. They don't want that. They want a nuke tank. It's basically a different game to them.

[vorpal]

Like you, snarf, I dislike vehicle spamfest maps. Acknowledging that there are players who like them, I think a softly softly approach would work best. Leave the maps in place, but modify them to restore some balance.

Some ideas:

• Gradually increase the respawn time of heavy vehicles by a bit each fortnight. Fast respawning encourages players to not value these vehicles. Doing this slowly will give the players who like vehicles, aka the tank whores, time to adjust. The respawn time of light vehicles can remain, or even be reduced.
• Fundamentally resassess the hitpoints of heavy vehicles. A reduction is way overdue imo.
• Add Avrils to all weapon lockers. It's not as if the Avril is some OP weapon that tilts the balance too heavily from vehicles to foot soldiers. Let's try and put the Avril back into play. Currently, it's useless against vehicles with excessive hitpoints.
• Add underground tunnels that are only large enough to fit foot soldiers. If the distances are too large, add teleporters, transporters (like in ONS-Grit), and/or jump pads
• Add floating platforms accessible through teleporters that have super weapons and a roof to protect against aerial attack. This gives foot soldiers a way to avoid being obliterated by OP and excessively large splash damage from certain heavy vehicles.
• Create vehicle exclusion zones in the immediate vicinity of some nodes to force people to exit fliers. VolcanoHigh has this, and it creates an interesting dynamic where defending foot soldiers who are waiting for a flyer to respawn can defend the node from incoming enemy flyers on a more level playing field.
• There are multiple variants of certain popular maps on the server. Reduce the variants, or add more variants of well balanced maps, such as MasterBath.

You will have heard me sing the praises of MasterBath for its well balanced design. If we can incorporate some of its features in other, more vehicle-heavy maps, that would be a win for everyone.

[pooty]

Some good ideas there Vorpal. I do like the idea of having to exit the vehicles for play. There's more than volcano, DarkMarsh, AriethiaComplex and several others.

The problem with HSH is the OMFG/nuke spam, which I reduced in V14.

I'll load that up shortly.

I don't really want to reduce variety.

And with respect to MassD, the Rhamp version with the hills, IMO would be much more fun with big tanks and very few fliers.

I think the other thing is too many, OP fliers. I mean a Mino has almost zero chance of beating a skilled player in a falcon. Many of these fliers are pretty cool, but like the GPolice Venom, its main gun can do 800+ in just a few seconds and it has 450 health, which means you need 3 avrils to kill it. I think the other problem is that base Avrils are just too slow/weak. The Battery Launcher upgrade is much better.
And of course best way to regulate the fliers is map design. You don't need Omega, Falcon, Venom, Aurora etc, unless you've got specific anti-air counters. Flyers easily break a map because they ignore any attempt to control progression and progression speed -- they just fly over terrain. Not saying there isn't a place for them, but I think toning things down is better.

We had toyed with the idea of doing server wide Damage reduction -- I think we can do this with a server wide mutator, but not sure if it applies to health -- because of the way the vehicles spawn.

Bottom line though I think more careful map design, and some patience with our mappers (me included) that it takes real play to tune a map.

[Rhamp]

And with respect to MassD, the Rhamp version with the hills, IMO would be much more fun with big tanks and very few fliers.

Thats what the previous version was, but enyo and other bitched about there not being enough fliers so I added more in the newest one :/. I don't think people have realized that 2 fliers spawn where the ion cannon used to be. 2 per node and 5 at the core. Should be plenty without being an unending zerg swarm of them. No dragon or arbiter, so no fog camping.

[pooty]

Its on the server as well.

[captainsnarf]

I used to be onboard with Vorpal's thoughts, but now I think it's a mistake to try and reduce the vehicle power too much. Those maps are popular because of them. The trick is to appeal to the tank spammer crowd and the DM crowd. Some maps do it, like Tek, but maps like Junkyard only chase away the players like california and myself. I'll sit through it, but if you vote Dria next, I'm out. I can only do so much tank.

[Rhamp]

I used to be onboard with Vorpal's thoughts, but now I think it's a mistake to try and reduce the vehicle power too much. Those maps are popular because of them. The trick is to appeal to the tank spammer crowd and the DM crowd. Some maps do it, like Tek, but maps like Junkyard only chase away the players like california and myself. I'll sit through it, but if you vote Dria next, I'm out. I can only do so much tank.

This 100%. Too little dm, all the dmers leave. Too little/weak vehicles, all the rest of the players leave. We need a junkyard where under the center hill area is a building or something where only on foot (maybe let scorps/badgers fit in, but no tanks or fliers). I'd be open to making a test version of this idea and we can see if it works, maybe with the addition of some jumppads and boards to move around the map on foot. A junkyard where it isn't just wide open vehicle spam would be so much better. We need maps where there are still power vehicles and big tanks, but where you can still be impactful on foot. Wide open maps like minus/dria/junk don't allow for that.