A few maps to be pulled?

[vorpal]

Reducing the vehicle hitpoints was merely one of my suggestions. I also mentioned the benefits of incorporating other features in the vehicle-heavy maps, such as tunnels, floating platforms, teleporters, and transporters for foot soldiers.

The vehicle lovers can still do their thing on ground level, while the foot soldiers have alternative strategies available. See MasterBath for an example of this.

[pooty]

Those maps are popular because of them. The trick is to appeal to the tank spammer crowd and the DM crowd. Some maps do it, like Tek, but maps like Junkyard only chase away the players like california and myself

No love for a rail tank? And on AJY, plenty of opportunity to snipe from the tower, but not much on foot action. I think that's ok for JY. But other maps some good on foot action works. People do love the vehicle heavy maps....lets face it no one wants to walk for minutes and then get picked off.

DarkMarsh is a good example, the 1 node can only be reached on foot, but rest of it is more vehicle play. I think the TMU crowd doesn't like that node though.

Key is good layout and good vehicle balance...it takes several edits and real play testing to get there.. sometimes you think oh this is good vehicle on this map -- then its either useless or OP.

But to those DMers, lets face it most players get wiped by Cali, Anon, Snarf, SubZero and without vehicle for protection its a slaughter... so those need to balance it out so you can splat those pesky DMers.

So lets see, for most maps
- Decent vehicle load out, we don't want all DM except for a few maps
- We don't want all Tanks (although the server survived by being a TMU, specifically Minus focused server back in the day...)
- At least some good DM heavy spots, and bit more complexity than shoot the node right over there. Give the players that like to snipe and/or play on foot a good way to contribute against the Falcons and Minos.

[Enyo]

but maps like Junkyard only chase away the players like california and myself. I'll sit through it, but if you vote Dria next, I'm out. I can only do so much tank.

California is a terrible example to use here. All he does is DM, almost never gets in a vehicle, even when it’s most prudent to do so, and rarely goes after a node. Therefore he only plays maps where he can be effective on foot. I’m not interested in catering maps to players that don’t play ONS even when on an ONS server.

Snarf, why don’t you get in the flyers more? Once you get the hang of them, dog fights can be a lot of fun, and Dria has lots of them.

[Rhamp]

dog fights can be a lot of fun, and Dria has lots of them.

Not when they are onesided as fuck. Starbolt and anything else with hitscan win hands down against anything else with no counter play. Whoring the 1-2 hitscan fliers to run a map gets boring, its just seal clubbing other fliers. Fliers should not have hitscan period, or if they do, make them like the link flier where its very short range so projectile based fliers have a chance. A single flier shouldn't be able to kill every other flier, a node, and a tank with ease. I bet if you put phariz in a starbolt and you in a wasp/flare raptor/venom raptor/ect, phariz would mop the floor with you, assuming he knew to keep his distance. Thats why my maps don't have hitscan fliers other than on HSH, where there is enough cover and the environment is tight enough that projectile fliers can get within range to hit the hitscan fliers.

Dogfighting on hyperblast is a whole lot of fun since the fliers there are on much more equal footing to each other and none of them have long range hitscan. This lets any flier have a chance at beating another. I wish that map got played more, but I think half the players still don't know where the nodes are.

[captainsnarf]

Cali plays defense. That is fine.

Cater to flyer players. Cater to tank spammers. Cater to dm players. There should be something on the server for everyone, and no one thing should be dominant, be it flyers, minos, or cali.

And I do get in flyers, just not exclusively. Sometimes I fart around in a car.

[YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH]

I used to be onboard with Vorpal's thoughts, but now I think it's a mistake to try and reduce the vehicle power too much. Those maps are popular because of them. The trick is to appeal to the tank spammer crowd and the DM crowd. Some maps do it, like Tek, but maps like Junkyard only chase away the players like california and myself. I'll sit through it, but if you vote Dria next, I'm out. I can only do so much tank.

Yeah I'm with you on that. Tek does a good job of being all three at the same time.

[pooty]

Starbolt and anything else with hitscan win hands down against anything else with no counter play. Whoring the 1-2 hitscan fliers to run a map gets boring, its just seal clubbing other fliers. Fliers should not have hitscan period,

Idk. Arbiter isn't that powerful, it has low health. Same with Starbolt its fast. Pz would get smoked easily in it, since he doesn't have Enyo's flyer movement skillz. Phoenix is also hitscan, but no one really complains about it. I think the Guppy Bomber style are much more powerful and should be used sparingly since they have powerful lasers AND big bombs and decent health -- probably the most OP flyers we have. Even the Omega (flying ion) has shorter range and no dogfighting ability...

But most of them get owned by lasers, and owned by railtanks(including Odin which is kind of a giant railtank).

Falcon kills a mino faster than most other hitscan flyers (bombs excepted), so does Omega (not hitscan), or Aurora (not hitscan). So its all dependent. Take the Aurora/Skyminer -- when allowed to build up the combo it can take out a full node but takes time and focus can't really defend, can only move slightly. So its not just hitscan.

[Rhamp]

Idk. Arbiter isn't that powerful, it has low health. Same with Starbolt its fast.

When you are facing something that doesn't have hitscan in these, it doesn't matter if you have low health if you can dodge everything. You can outrange half the fliers and be in no danger whatsoever. The starbolt being able to laser a flier from across the map through the fog, fly in at mach fuck, drop a bomb, and duck behind cover in under a second means most players have no counterplay to it. The arbiter is a bit more balanced since its slower and bigger. On AJY, if the enemy team doesn't have enyo or anyone else who can fly well and I get my hands on either of these fliers, I run the map, in some cases never dying the whole game. I can't imagine this is fun for those on the other team getting farmed with no counterplay. Of course a rail tank or some ground based lasers can take these out if they aren't flown correctly, but a good pilot is well aware of where these are positioned and whether or not they are manned with someone who can aim well. Most of the time, I can either outmaneuver them and get in their deadzone and get a free kill, or just push a lane where they aren't, or most of the time, just straight up kill them due to their aim sucking ass. These fliers have long range hitscan, high dps, and high mobility. IMO vehicles shouldn't have all of these things, which is why I don't put these vehicles or bombers in most of my maps, they are way too op. It is also why I made the non-hitscan bomber variants because I like how the bombers handle for doing bombing runs, but they shouldn't be good dogfighters too.

The aurora is one of the more balanced fliers, as its fairly slow, requires setup to do big damage, and a very weak hitscan. Phoenix is somewhat op due to its hitscan, but not brokenly op since its lasers do average dps and it can't deal with tanks or nodes unless it gets right up close, making it much more balanced. Omega is spammy, but balanced since it has to get within medium range to strike a ground target, exposing itself in the process, plus its slow and has no way to defend itself.

My main issue with fliers having hitscan is that it makes the ones with hitscan much more op for dogfighting than those without. There is no point even flying one without hitscan (other than the omega since it's anti-ground capability is so strong), so much so I will bail out and shock rifle until I die from fall damage since that is more effective. What is the point in shooting projectiles that have no chance to hit at range? Its worse than trying to use an avril against a good starbolt pilot, it will just dodge or outrun it.

[pooty]

These fliers have long range hitscan, high dps, and high mobility. IMO vehicles shouldn't have all of these things, which is why I don't put these vehicles or bombers in most of my maps, they are way too op. It is also why I made the non-hitscan bomber variants because I like how the bombers handle for doing bombing runs, but they shouldn't be good dogfighters too.

Agree most of them have no weakness. Phoenix is good and its hit scan, but its dps is fairly low comparatively, and not as much of a bomb.
Arbiter has low health too.

I think the Arbiter range is 15000, which is in SR range, and Avril range. Not sure on the Bombers. Mostly lasers are 20000, which the flyers shouldn't have since you can't get hit by miniguns (usually 15000) or SR. That's why Omega works, it has to get close enough to get hit first.

I think having the original OP bomber variant is good and the non-hitscan is good too. The originals work in the Randomizers high powered maps where there's a ton of other vehicles with anti-air.

I think though, the biggest point is the agility. You, Enyo and few others can manuever much faster, better where its even hard to SR them... even harder with slow lasers. Put an average player in them and they aren't so OP.

[Enyo]

What’s funny is all the hitscan flyers like Starbolt and the bombers/Arbiter can all be taken out easily on foot. An LG shot and two shock rifle hits kill the Starbolt.

And Rhamp, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve gone head to head against a Starbolt with a Falcon and won. And you strangely left the Dragon off the list of hitscan flyers, it’s hitscan, has bombs and tons of health. Sure it’s not fast, but it’s often one of the most powerful flyer on a map. And it one shots a Starbolt I think.

And dang, people say I have an ego, but you’re not quite as dominant in these flyers as you think you are. At least not when I’m around. And I get lasered/sniped plenty when I’m in these flyers.