Fire Vehicles...Fire Tank, Fire Manta, Fire Raptor

[pooty]

I'm open to changing the primary Ifirit fire, just not today.
I kind of like the burst like the arbiter, or perhaps flames like the Draco but more in a straight line?
Or maybe it shoots the burning meteors at very high speed

[pooty]

it’s super stupid you have to wait for the same meter to recharge before you can fire either primary or alt. They should have their own timers like everything else.

So that's NOT default behavior btw. Snarf worked around it and we can do it and several vehicles do, but it takes a bit more code.

I think it just depends on primary fire whether it makes sense.

[captainsnarf]

I got in the Ifrit a few times last night on HSH, it felt much better, not OP but still good. And yes I forgot to try primary fire. It sucked so bad before i'm trained to not use it

[pooty]

So I know Enyo you wanted this buffed...since the nerf but...

Alt-Fire - Bigger Damage Reduction. Does ~600-700 ish on direct hit. Most of this now is direct hit explosion, with less setting fire. So think primary sets things on fire, this blows them up. It no longer does 1500+ Keep in mind as Snarf pointed out in the other thread mino has fire resistsance so it takes less damage might take you three (four?) ifrit shots now. Regular smaller tanks though are still easy pickings. And this will now do much damage to nodes -- its a node killer two to three altfires.

I mean say 600 per shot?! Needs more? It will kill most tanks in two shots, trucks, badgers, in one... and that alt-fire has a very long range. I mean if we need to buff that, should I just make a flying mino?

For nodes, hit it 2-4 times with primary then secondary should go down pretty quick.

As I said I'd be open to changing the primary fire.. but that is much stronger than it used to be...

And yes on HSpamHome map its not going to feel OP at all, but on the other maps it will be fine.

[Enyo]

So I know Enyo you wanted this buffed...since the nerf but...

It’s not direct hit damage that’s the problem, you reduced the alt fire burn damage too much. That’s what made the damn thing effective and you took it away. I would rather you have done it the other way around, reduce direct hit damage and increase flame damage. It fires so incredibly slow, has no air defense and it isn’t fast. It has no discernible advantage now. Take it from one of the best pilots on the server, it sucks now. If Rhamp or I no longer get in a flyer, it’s because you nerfed it too much and now it’s useless.

And I’m not so sure it’s actually doing 600 damage on direct hits, can that change depending on where you hit a vehicle, i.e. front vs back of a tank? Because sometimes it takes 3 shots to kill a freaking Goliath II now. At the slow rate of fire that’s just ridiculous.

And right, the mino has flame resistance, so let’s nerf the one flame flyer that actually was the best anti mino flyer, which now gets demolished before it can half kill a mino.

[pooty]

And I’m not so sure it’s actually doing 600 damage on direct hits, can that change depending on where you hit a vehicle, i.e. front vs back of a tank? Because sometimes it takes 3 shots to kill a freaking Goliath II now. At the slow rate of fire that’s just ridiculous.

Its pretty easy to tell with the damage numbers on. It is a bit dependent on where it hits and when it sets things on fire. I can up the burn slightly, but I don't think we want a flyer doing 800 to tanks in one shot, except the Omega which is quite range limited. Or maybe up the direct damage since that's not location dependent, burning.

And right, the mino has flame resistance, so let’s nerf the one flame flyer that actually was the best anti mino flyer, which now gets demolished before it can half kill a mino.

I do think there needs to be a flyer that's deadly to the mino... need to do that without it doing 1000+ and one shotting every other vehicle. Although the best anti-mino flyer is the Goo Raptor. Maybe we could make an alternate version of that. Killing the mino is a different problem though.

If Rhamp or I no longer get in a flyer, it’s because you nerfed it too much and now it’s useless.

I'll disagree its not useless its just no longer OP. Really flyers shouldn't be able to one shot anything....unless really close. Rhamp and you love to run the map in a high powered flyer...

Maybe reduce the alt-fire range on the ifrit and up the damage, leave the primary fire the longer range option? That might be good trade off, you can fireball for big damage but you can't do it from way far away...

Let's find a sweet spot. Or maybe the answer is to remove fire resistance from the mino...

[captainsnarf]

Yeah, probably just remove the fire resistance. It's not a fire vehicle so doesn't really make sense. And benders should one-shot flyers! wtf man Too many flyers have > 300 hp.

[pooty]

Sounds like lets just remove the fire resistance from Minotaurs both Classic and Omnitaur as well. After all they have 2000 health!

[Enyo]

Sounds like lets just remove the fire resistance from Minotaurs both Classic and Omnitaur as well. After all they have 2000 health!

Maybe that's a good compromise. I need to test more with the current Ifrit... did you say you can shoot the primary missile at something, and then alt fire hit it to make a big flame? The flame burning of the alt fire is what's missing now it seems. And are the primary and alt fire timer still the same? They should be independent of each other.

*** EDIT ***
Did a quick Ifrit test and I don't see what you're talking about with shooting the primary projectile with the alt fire. They just hit independently of each other, it maybe seemed to enhance the flames or whatever you were saying it does on vehicles only. Hard to tell, it does the same damage if you hit primary and alt on opposite ends of a Perses. That combo does nothing extra to nodes, which now take a long time to kill with the Ifrit, taking nearly twice as long as a Falcon.

My recordings didn't work, so I need to go back and get exact timing again, but I was able to take out a Perses and a Pallas in again about half the time with a Falcon than it takes with the Ifrit. That seems... not right. The Ifrit primary and alt fire are still tied to the same timer, so there's still a long delay going from primary to alt or vice versa. They should have independent timers like most vehicles. AND THE PRIMARY FIRE STILL SUCKS!!! All it seems you did was rob the flames from the alt fire (while also reducing its direct hit damage) and gave it to the primary.

I'm telling you, whatever you did to the Ifrit screwed it up. I think you were somehow trying to make the still useless missile more useful, but somehow it just made the thing overall very weak now compared to other most flyers. It's been on the server forever in the old format and nobody complained until Azazel whined about it killing the mino too fast.

It's not about wanting to run a map with one flyer, really hard to do that with an Ifrit, even before you nerfed it. It's about being on par with other flyers and being able to stand a chance against the shit-ton of laser/twin-beam vehicles with 1000's of HP we now have on the server.

[pooty]

So I played with it a bit testing the mino changes.

The ifrit primary fire does set tanks on fire doing 324 pts optimally. 1 shot every 2s its basically smaller alt-fire less the smoke screen.

Alt-fire seems to 589 (the damage number thing is great, since this has impact damage (475), heat/fire and burn damage for the rest). 1 shot every 7 s. Omega is every Five, but way shorter range. I could probably increase the burn damage slightly... I'll play with it a bit here.
By Contrast FireTank does way less Impact (285) and much more burn. The change here was thinking more explosion less fire.

Primary is pretty good as it has great range -- its better than goliath shell for sure.

Timing is not independent.

But two quick primary fires, then an alt-fire right now does 1237 pts in basically 4-5s. So pretty potent, but maybe a slight increase in the alt-fire. To me the biggest advantage of the Ifrit is long range... it doesn't have to get really close and projectile speeds are quick for easy aim to hit tanks.