Damage Reductions...

[pooty]

So several of us were discussing reducing damage from some of the various vehicles. The goal is to make a battle not just a one shot instagib type environment.

We need to enforce some standards. For example,

Min)o(taur Turrets
Minigun:
TraceRange=15000 (kind of the standard minigun range)
FireInterval=0.100000
DamageMin=19
DamageMax=19
So that's 1s/.1 = 10 * 19 = 190 pts / sec (the game will random between if Min/Max are different..)

Lasers:
TraceRange=80000 (Essentially unlimited, usually lasers get 20000 range)
FireInterval=0.180000
DamageMin=20
DamageMax=20
111 pts/sec

Hurricane Lasers:
TraceRange=20000
FireInterval=0.200000
DamageMin=35
DamageMax=55
Avg. 45*5 = 225 pts/sec So on average 2x Mino lasers/

Now the Flyer hated Armadillo popularly known as Troop Carrier (ground one not the Helix, and I think we should change its name to Armadillo)
Minigun:
TraceRange=15000
FireInterval=0.100000
DamageMin=38
DamageMax=48
So that's 1s/.1 = 10 * 43 = 430 avg pts / sec

Lasers:
FireInterval=0.200000
DamageType=Class'CSAdvancedArmor.DamType_LaserBeam'
DamageMin=50
DamageMax=70
TraceRange=20000.000000
5 * 60 = avg 300 pts/sec

First, tank shells/rockets/missles are different..they fire a true projectile (actor) that flies on its own across the map -- taking time vs. hitscan (instant) path. So they typically have speed and time to live = Range. Mino Cannon 19000 (1.5s) = 28,500 + damage radius 2000 = 30,500], but slower projectiles you can move out of the way, hit scan you cannot.

Now keep in mind all those numbers are if every hitscan hits.. with the minigun that's 10/s and unless your Anon or Sanka, you'll probably have a few misses. That being said, I think we should set a guideline:

Miniguns:
TraceRange=15000 (same as Avril Range btw)
Avg Damage 250 pts/sec (set min/max accordingly, so some vehicles could have very consistent damage, other could be more variable)

Lasers
Trace Range=20000 typical, in some cases maybe powerful vehicles get a bit more range, maybe 30000 standard? Longer?
In the mino's case its almost needed since projectile flyers can shoot well past 20000 and the mino is a slow ass beast. Eg Falcon FireInterval=0.150000, 30 pts, = 200 pts/sec, Range = (1.6 ~25000) = 40000.
So yes that falcon can stay well out of laser range.

Avg Damage 225 pts/sec (Hurricane laser as the max standard). More typically I'd say keep it closer to mino ~100 pts.

I could be convinced to let the miniguns get more powerful...they are close in weapons. WRT to range, Avril Range is 15000, Shock Rifle is 17000, so if you're at 18000 those lasers will kill you and your handheld weapons are useless. At least with Miniguns you can fight back. Its why we reduced the range on the Omega -- no fun to get Ion blasted by the campers and you can't even shoot back....

BTW there's also "spread" which is how accurate some of these weapons are.. for example Goliath as 10x larger spread vs GoliathII which is very accurate.... but the biggest thing is range/damage standardizations.

This means the Armadillo needs a nerfing. I'd also say might be worth pushing its health back up a bit making it more defensive.
I'd also add that for hit scans nothing should exceed 350 pts/shot. (Railgun is 350 plus some momentum). And a flying railgun..well that's just OP.

Yes the falcon does more but you have to get very close... so like most things its a balance... mino is a slow easy target with a big gun. Mino cannon on a raptor is just insane.

The goal here is balance, and avoidance of the "instagib" one shot < .5 s kills.

Thoughts?

[Enyo]

Holy crap, mino lasers have a range of 80000!!! And I kinda figured the Troop Carrier lasers were more powerful than the Hurricane. Surprised the TC minigun is actually more powerful than its lasers though, doesn’t seem like it. Maybe because the minigun has a more limited range and angle of fire.

I say go with what you’ve suggested, there definitely needs to be some more consistency in ranges and damage for the same/similar vehicle weapons.

[YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH]

Random thoughts:

Yeah the other night Minus Randomizer allowed two Troop Carries to defend node ten. No way in hell any flyers were getting in there, it was insane.

I do like the idea of pushing for some kind of standardization. But I only really notice it on Valarna. Actually that's probably one of the only maps where I ever notice or care about laser range.

I think the mino's huge range should be kept. I don't feel its lasers are OP in any way. You still get rocked by flyers pretty easily in that thing.

Hurricaine lasers feel pretty useless, I never use them. The Hurricaine itself is actually being "nerfed by association" with all our new vehicle creations. It used to be a devastating weapon but I rarely get it in it now.

[Enyo]

I do like the idea of pushing for some kind of standardization. But I only really notice it on Valarna. Actually that's probably one of the only maps where I ever notice or care about laser range.

It's definitely noticeable on Evergreen too, especially the mino lasers. Once Anon or Nautikal gets a bead on you with mino lasers, there's no distance you can fly to get away, and no way to get near it or even in range with a flyer. Even on MTMU maps, where your only escape is behind a building.

I think the mino's huge range should be kept. I don't feel its lasers are OP in any way. You still get rocked by flyers pretty easily in that thing.

Really? 80000 mino laser range is ridiculous and should be reduced to the suggested "strong tank" range of 30000. The mino is often labeled as an easy target, but not on wide open maps where it's impossible to get anywhere near. Good mino drivers do NOT "get rocked by flyers pretty easily in that thing."

Hurricaine lasers feel pretty useless, I never use them. The Hurricaine itself is actually being "nerfed by association" with all our new vehicle creations. It used to be a devastating weapon but I rarely get it in it now.

Double REALLY??? I love the Hurricane, it's still one of the best tanks on the server. And the lasers are definitely not useless... maybe it's your aim? Did you not see the part about how they do more damage than mino lasers? Get near Anon/Sanka/Nautikal with any flyer when they're in a Hurricane and tell me if you still think the lasers are useless.

THIS is definitely happening next time I see you and I'm in a Hurricane!

[pooty]

Might worth some testing out one day, to see if those ranges make sense. Valarna is the one map where range really matters (notice there's no mino there).

Given no one really complained Hurricane lasers were too range limited at 20000, 30000 or so makes sense, again though I want to balance it so a bunch of infantry has a chance. At 30000, you don't have anything except maybe rockets that hit. So some camper in the lasers will waste you. Now for the Mino (aka Kingshit), you expect that to be down right scary to infantry (does have the goo x3 damage thing). But we don't need the rest of the lasers...going that far anyway.

[pooty]

So I want to figure out what a good max range settings are....

For vehicle based instant fire, instant tracking, continuous fire perhaps 30000 for lasers? 15000 is good for miniguns, this allows for vehicles (tanks) to be attacked by infantry weapon ranges.

For vehicle based slow tracking, non- continuous fire(Odin, Rail Tank etc) I think longer is fine as it takes skill to "line up" shots, same with twin beams..you have to aim and hit/miss counts. Although maybe should be a universal "max range" 80000 is too much, IMO.

Various Ranges
Most miniguns = 15000 (hitscan)
Most Lasers = 20000 (hitscan)
Mino Lasers = 80000! (hitscan)
Mino Cannon = 30500 (inc hit radius) (speed 19000)
Shock Rifle = 17000 (hitscan)
Levi Cannon Range = 25000.
Raptor plasma = 20000 (speed 12500)
Falcon plasma range = 40000 (speed 25000 twice as fast projectiles as raptor, same time to live)
StockBender TwinBeams = 20000 (hitscan)
IonTank = 20000
Rockets/Goliath Shell = 18000 (speed 15000)
Cicada belly gun = 20000 (hitscan)
Cicada primary fire = 56000 (speed 8000 * 7 but recall these don't fly straight either)

Seeing a pattern here.. 25000 from MAS is max range in stock vehicles, while modded vehicles are all over the place. We generally don't use stock vehicles. Right now there's too many vehicles with too high range / damage that makes being on foot nearly worthless (it was always be a mismatch health wise).... and too many mismatches on vehicles... eg. Falcon can spam a node out of SR, Avril, Laser range easily.

So I'd suggest:
Ranges:
Miniguns =15000
Lasers = 20000 (30000 for "heavy" vehicles eg. Mino/Mega and select)
Flyer Weapons (hitscan, aimed fast projectiles) = 20000
Flyer "Bombs" = ??? (Dragon bombs, starbolt/flare bombs, guppy bombs).. not sure its an issue
Tank Projectiles = 20000 (30000 on exception basis, likely leave mino cannon as is).
MAS Singularity Cannons = 25000
I don't see much case for range exceptions, it will/does break balance.


Damage Guidelines:
Max for hitscan, continuous (miniguns, range 15000) = 275 pts/s MAX (not Avg)
Max for hitscan, continuous (lasers, range 20000) = 225 pts/s MAX (not Avg) (less damage trade for longer range)
Single shot hitscan (twin beams) = 350 pts/max (Railgun).
Single shot projectile = 1600 pts (mino) which is 533 pts/sec, so that's a good max. (Levis/Ions similar)
I think its mostly hit scan/continous fire stuff.. and you can balance things easier, for example the mobreaker does shit ton 500 pts shot and up close its devastating, but range is poor, and spread (deviation from straight shots,some random movement "spread" which can I believe apply to miniguns/lasers too) is high so it sucks at longer ranges. Levi cannon is slow and takes long time to recharge. Odin can be tough to line up, slow to turn. So lots to balance as vehicles are made.


So a couple of priority changes:
Armadillo (I am going to rename the Troop Carrier, it really can carry lots of passengers but we never use it like that). Damage/Range reduction. Might increase health a bit when that's done...it will be less powerful than Hurricane so can balance it by a bit more health (1600?).

Minotaur Lasers - Range 30000, same damage.

Falcon - Range 30000, a reduction from 40000 same damage.

Arbiter - Railgun damage reduced to say 200?

Anything else wildly broken?

[captainsnarf]

I don't like the direction this is going.

225 pts/s max for lasers? That's lame. All lasers will be the same. What's the point of the troop carrier then? Just get in the hurricane it will be superior in every way.

Arbiter damage reduced to 200? It only has 200 health, is really slow and hard to maneuver. One avril will kill it. Those changes were made to balance out the damage it does. If you reduce the damage, will you make it faster and more maneuverable? And if so, then how is it different than any other flyer? Just grab a phoenix then it will be superior.

Those differences are what make all the different vehicles unique. Without them and they are all the same. That's why I always tried to reduce health when balancing out OP vehicles. This way they keep their uniqueness while still being balanced.

Dark levi - faster, has rail guns, so nerf health by -2000.
Dark rail tank - faster, so nerf health by -300.

The various ranges are a mixed bag too. 20000 is close to 'full' range. Most maps aren't much bigger than that. Valarna from core to core is about 30000 judging from where 20000 range lasers max out their range. Anything greater than 20000 is just overkill that doesn't matter much. 80000 for mino lasers? Who cares when the map is only 30000, and most maps don't have a straight path like that to shoot the full distance.

Going through and nerfing all the lasers will just make flyers more powerful. You will need to nerf every vehicle to avoid unbalancing it too much.

[pooty]

225 pts/s max for lasers? That's lame. All lasers will be the same. What's the point of the troop carrier then? Just get in the hurricane it will be superior in every way.

So lets break it down for the Troop Carrier/Armadillo -- say lasers match Hurricane. Against flyer TC wins, and if you have two people in it, not even close against flyers. Hurricane primary gun is all but useless against flyers. TC minigun and lasers could potentially do 450+ pts to a flyer in a second, pretty powerful anti air. Its fine to have something that may have more powerful lasers as long as there's offsetting weakness (low health, slow aim, slow movement).

The goal here and maybe max wasn't quite the right word, but think in terms of base vehicle. Should it be fast, nimble, flying and do 1600 pts of damage in one shot? No. We don't need a flying mino. We don't need a flying ION with 40000 range.

We don't need a 500 pts/s continous hitscan weapon that destroys every flyer instantly, same could be said of Arbiter rail gun -- it makes every twin beam/ground rail tank vastly inferior -- much harder for those to pop up shoot, and hide behind a hill. Having watched Sanka/Anon on both Evergreen and MassDwith it -- just repeatedly kill nearly every flyer before you can even see them -- with a Rail Tank, TwinBeam, even Dark Levi, you can figure where the ground vehicles are at and go back and attack from a different angle... not so with Arbiter, they shoot, hide behind a hill, boost across the map and zip, zip, zip, you're dead repeatedly -- might as well play instagib with flyers... and put the flying mino in, even if the raptormino has 40 health it'd be devastating.

Same with long range mino lasers, put a good shooter in there, as we saw on Evergreen, and nothing CAN even damage it.. you won't get close enough -- except maybe dragon laser or warhawk (not on EVG)-- anything else is killed outside their attack range. Its why there's no mino on valarna.

Its a guideline, not necessarily a "hard limit" As you point out make a case and balance for why it should have more? Keep in mind the mino has 111 pts/s lasers and no one complained about them being "weak". I'd also say part of that balance is turret vs. driver weapon, if its a turret you have to stop (or get a gunner).

Every vehicle has to have some sort of balance (range vs. damage, health vs (range,damage), mobility vs. (health, range, damage) etc. Most vehicles should have an ideal scenario, but also key weakness to keep it from being too OP. So say for instance a Tiamat, could have huge range (maybe even longer than 20000), but its big, slow (stationary)...it can fire MAS cannon away, but unless its fully manned flyers will pick it apart.

Now I get what you're saying with the flyers. And the flying is such a HUGE advantage. For example, and I'll pick on Enyo who says if we nerf the flyers we should nerf the mino.... No.

The flying is such a HUGE advantage:
- Usually faster
- Ignores terrain/ 2D map features (buildings/water etc.)
- Easily hide
- Easily pop up/shoot retreat
- Attack easily from distance, especially at height 3D attack vector vs 2D.

Consider the
Arbiter.. long range, high damage, fast, flying its weakness is health but if you can't see it and certainly can't shoot it, its health doesn't matter. From an air-to-air perspective its one of the best, if not the best in the hands of a skilled shooter. It can pick off Raptors, Falcons, Wasps, Mantas all in one shot. Air-to-air homing missles including Avrils/batteries are useless, it just boosts away. Even compared to starbolt, guppy bomber (which its lasers are pretty potent) -- those you can SEE the lasers, the Arbiter during busy map essentially fires an invisible shot so once you're dead its nearly impossible to track. Now I'll admit its pretty fun picking off the shitstains flying straight and easy with it. I think it could use a few tweaks, maybe a trail Odin style to track it a bit better (and your team can see the beam) might be enough to balance....

Falcon. Longest range,fairly high damage, flying. Weakness is range is projectiles vs hitscan. So weak against faster targets, but not against say nodes/minos/levis/most tanks. Its a high powered flyer. Sitting outside weapon ranges and hitting your node is game breaking. Its why the range on the helix is 15000 -- it has to get low enough to get hit by pretty much anything... Current falcon if the map allows can fire, moves very fast all over the place, hard to hit, does ton of damage.

So this isn't going to be some huge overhaul, but rather a more careful evaluation of what generally is percevied as broken, and working through the balance.
And no intent to make things totally homogenous....no fun in that... ranges though need careful attention.
just making sure things aren't generally breaking gameplay. The guidelines are there to help with that.

The only real changes so far:
Mino Range to be reasonable (30000), if I had my way the range would be 20000 like every other laser.
TC Laser Damage to be reasonable -- same/near Hurricane, minigun damage reduction, perhaps allow more angle on minigun (so two could shoot flyers at once -- I am always in favor of teamwork working well).
Falcon Range to 20000.
Arbiter - I think adding trail effect on the shot would go along way and could probably leave the rest as is.

[Enyo]

Ugh, this went from talking about standardizing laser/minigun damage and range to suddenly nerfing the Falcon yet again. It was already reduced in rate of fire and speed/maneuverability. Leave the range alone, that increased range is so it has a chance against the tanks with lasers. If it's range is less than the mino lasers, it has no chance. You talk about the Falcon like it's the most powerful thing on the server... not even close, the Starbolt outguns the Falcon every time, honestly so does a Phoenix or a Wyvern. Leave it alone please.

We're talking strictly on wide open maps, none of this really has much effect on maps with lots of buildings. The exception being that a mino can and does pick off flyers flying high up and at great distance on maps like Djunk and MTMU. And of course flyers have a natural advantage... the balance is that flyers have very low health and tanks have tons of it. Flyers go down way faster and more often than the tanks.

BTW, MassD is another one with mostly wide open territory where the tank lasers have a huge advantage over the flyers.

[pooty]

If it's range is less than the mino lasers, it has no chance.

No it should not be less. I am saying keep them the same range so both vehicles can hit each other. 30000. That keeps the falcon's current advantage over most other tanks (20000), and the mino laser gets reduced to 30000. Falcon would still have the advantage, as it could fire right at the range limit and score hits then pull back, whereas most tanks are fairly stationary (or at least straight line moving). Remember currently, Mino range at 80000 way more than Falcon range anyway, this weakens the mino, doesn't nerf the falcon -- falcon was already outranged, now its even.

I guess its the more fundamental question of should flyers have damage inflicting ranges > most(all) tanks? I'd say no based on when the Helix had huge range on the miniguns and you could just sit up high and hit nodes and nothing could reach you (falcon can do this today too).

The other factor here is the distance, where in most maps have a CullDistance which is the distance things are removed from seeing, I think for most maps, as Snarf said, < 20000 anyway, much less if things are in the way.

So do we agree to
1. Reduce Mino Laser range to 30000

2. Adjust TC.
VariantA (Armadillo). Reduce laser power (standard range 20000) to near hurricane range, keep 1200 health.
VariantB (Porcupine?) Keep laser power, increase its speed, lower its health.
In both cases, I'd reduce minigun damage to be more typical and give it better pitch up, this also give people on foot more time to damage it, vs nearly instant mow down by minigun.

At the end of the day, I just want to close any exploits on range that breaks gameplay. Mino lasers for sure do that. TC Lasers do that.
Falcon I could leave be and we could see how that plays (less work for me anyway).