Map comebacks... some thoughts..

[pooty]

So the post on forcing maps, snarf's comments got me thinking about comebacks...

Comebacks are always difficult in ONS. More nodes = more vehicles. If you control 6 nodes and the opponent has core, they are kinda screwed.

However, I do agree they should be possible, and it requires careful planning and map design. Part of the reason the randomizers are awful is because even with many powerful vehicles at the core, the dominating team can simple trade deaths and triumph.

And Flyers make this worse, especially the powerful ones. Try building 4/5 when getting pummeled by Falcons/Wasp/Helix/Starbolt, and thats not even counting things like bombers, omegas. Flyers negate on many maps the critical element to mounting a comeback -- time -- flyers ignore terrain and generally are fast, often much faster than tanks...

I wonder if that contributes to people liking things that are flyer light like Minus-TMU, and DJY?

I recently edit AJY to attempt more power at the cores, less at 3/9. Might be worth an experiment to create a AJY version with some extremes... even more at the cores/primaries, and less in the middle 3/9, 7/10, 6/8 nodes and see how it plays.

[Enyo]

I wonder if that contributes to people liking things that are flyer light like Minus-TMU, and DJY?

I recently edit AJY to attempt more power at the cores, less at 3/9. Might be worth an experiment to create a AJY version with some extremes... even more at the cores/primaries, and less in the middle 3/9, 7/10, 6/8 nodes and see how it plays.

Nah, the stains just don’t want to have to bother looking up, which they never do.

It seems logical, on randomizers at least, to make the core vehicles, especially flyers, the strongest on the map, with vehicle spawns getting gradually weaker toward the middle of the map. Exceptions would be really large maps like Volcano High.

[Rhamp]

This is what I tried to do with my version of HSH. Putting all the mechs and most op vehicles at the core with a large selection of vehicles makes it possible to recover with coordinated link nuking. The issue I had with the original version was that once you took the middle, you get the shock and rocket mech, which absolutely dominates the other team. I did something similar with Hyperblast, with all the strong fliers only spawning at the core and the nearby primary. On AJY, too often mechs and op fliers spawn in the center nodes, making it once you get pushed back to your core, your team is screwed. Similar thing with VolcanoHigh. Yesterday, a bunch of bombers spawned at some nodes, letting me always have access to one and ended up dominating the map. The core spawned with absolute shit with no anti air, so once the enemy team was pushed back to their core, they had no chance. Cores, especially on randomizer maps, need to have either forced spawns for strong vehicles, lots of spawns for more rolls on good vehicles, or a combination on both. Otherwise, the team with the most nodes wins, especially when stains take the high powered vehicles. Its why I like HSHRandomizer the best, I can always find a good vehicle.

[pooty]

On AJY, too often mechs and op fliers spawn in the center nodes, making it once you get pushed back to your core, your team is screwed. Similar thing with VolcanoHigh. Yesterday, a bunch of bombers spawned at some nodes, letting me always have access to one and ended up dominating the map.

You shouldn't see any more mechs in the center on AJY, no omegas or higher value flyers if you see let me know and I'll reduce the points further.
This is precisely the issue with Randomizers with power vehicles -- getting one in just the right node can "break" map play.

And the exception would be a "reward" vehicle, think Missle Tank on the old Minus-Nightwolf where you got 6 and that could easily turn the match, which is fine.

[captainsnarf]

The other side of being able to make a comeback is being able to win. This seems to mostly be balanced by map layout rather than node/vehicle strength balancing.

I don't mind losing. What sucks is when you can't get a primary up long enough to make a comeback, while at the same time they can't get your primary up long enough to get core damage. The result is 20 minutes of spawn killing. This is part of what makes Minus good. At least one of the primaries has some protection, and the core is open and can be hit from a distance. Even if you can only get the primary up briefly, it's enough time for someone to get some core hits in. D$K-Gunshop is similar. The core is relatively protected, except there is a tiny window in the building. That window makes all the difference in the world. Cover up that window and the map would play very differently.

Fixing a map like Nevermore might be less about balancing vehicles and vehicle spawn times and more about lifting the core up on a pedestal of sorts so it could be hit from a distance when it's available. A minor change like that would completely change how the map plays out.

[pooty]

Fixing a map like Nevermore might be less about balancing vehicles and vehicle spawn times and more about lifting the core up on a pedestal of sorts so it could be hit from a distance when it's available. A minor change like that would completely change how the map plays out.

Not sure Nevermore is that bad. You can hit it pretty easily from the far primary, even behind with the Ion if you know where to aim, and hitsounds help. The core is already raised up. From the near primary you have to get over the hill and to the side to hit the core... I wonder if removing that hill and making it flat would make that node more desirable, likely easier to defend too, but also easier for the enemy to get into the bases...

All that run on being said, I think its 75% map, 25% vehicles. JY its hard to keep primaries up if lost because especially with 4/5 there's two enemy nodes much closer than the core....so its a big wave of enemies much faster. Maybe an idea is to make 3/9 very, very weak, maybe only two vehicles with lower power. At least with 6/8 its a bit farther. I think its not also necessary that every node have the same number or even have any vehicles.

[Enyo]

Not sure Nevermore is that bad. You can hit it pretty easily from the far primary, even behind with the Ion if you know where to aim, and hitsounds help. The core is already raised up.

It isn't bad at all. When did Nevermore suddenly become a map that needs fixing? It's always played well with a lot of back and forth and been very popular for a long time. You can hit the core from the far primary, as pooty pointed out, with any tank. and you can hit the core from afar with any flyer, as well as with the Levi. You can also hit it with the Hurricane from outside the core if you know how to aim it right. Maybe what snarf is picking up on is the fact that many of our players would rather sit at the primaries picking off enemies as they come to the primaries, rather than killing the core.

JY its hard to keep primaries up if lost because especially with 4/5 there's two enemy nodes much closer than the core....so its a big wave of enemies much faster. Maybe an idea is to make 3/9 very, very weak, maybe only two vehicles with lower power. At least with 6/8 its a bit farther. I think its not also necessary that every node have the same number or even have any vehicles.

Exactly right. I've always hated the setup of 4/5 nodes, nearly impossible to get it back without extremely good teamwork, meaning multiple linkers and multiple anti-air protecting. Rarely happens. Not sure how much work it would be, but what about just moving the 4/5 primaries away from 3/9 back toward the core more. You could move the whole damn hill that protects it too. There's quite a lot of empty space (which could be expanded if needed) currently between core and 4/5. Would take a little longer for the middle and corner node tanks to get there.

[captainsnarf]

Maybe what snarf is picking up on is the fact that many of our players would rather sit at the primaries picking off enemies as they come to the primaries, rather than killing the core.

Yeah, maybe that's all it is. I recall bitching at the other team on Torlan-LinkerMadness for this. They had the primary, but their ion raptor was floating above between the core and primary, killing pedestrians instead of turning 10 degrees and shooting at core. The game could have been over in 5 seconds, but no instead lets spawn kill players with no real way to fight back for 5 minutes.

[pooty]

What is it Enyo says: "Torlan exposes all"
In TLM, if any of the flyers (omega, wraith, link flyer) are wasted and/or team doesn't for a link chain no comeback... but no excuse for the Omega not blasting the core even if its just one hit before getting whacked, as that's a ton of core points.